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  • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

    Originally posted by unofan View Post
    And yet, if this were about being forced to, say, wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle or wearing seatbelts in cars, you'd be making a speech about how your personal liberty is being infringed.
    I assume you mean some sort of generic "you" and not me personally?

    When it comes to helmets while riding motorcycles and seat belts driving cars, I changed my mind years ago based on something I heard someone else say (you might want to try that once in awhile yourself, listening to what a person actually says without filtering it through your prejudices first. It help keeps the brain from ossifying!).

    Their point was, what about paramedics, police offers, other rescue personnel who have to deal with the injured and the wreckage? Not using these protective devices puts an additional burden on them, quite unfairly.

    Civil society requires trade-offs between different peoples' interests for all of us to get along together. In this case the rights of the rescue people seem a bit more important to me. Others may disagree and that's why we vote.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

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    • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

      Originally posted by unofan View Post
      That's not the point. FreshFish is apparently all for government intervention and mandated behavior as long as it's against things he hates. But the second it forces him to do something, "OMG ***BBQ!!!!!!"
      You are wrong. Your prejudices are showing, and they don't put you in a very favorable light (in this post at least). You allow your frustration over being inarticulate to overrule your reason (assuming you have some).
      Last edited by FreshFish; 06-27-2012, 10:13 AM.
      "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

      "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

      "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

      "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

      Comment


      • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

        Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
        You are wrong. Your prejudices are showing, and they don't put you in a very favorable light (in this post at least). You allow your frustration over being inarticulate to overrule your reason (assuming you have some).
        Careful with casually throwing out those ad homs. unofan is a very articulate poster -- moreso than most here.

        Taking you out of the picture for a moment, surely you agree that there is a large measure of hypocrisy among the "small government" types when it comes to their particular hobby-horse issues? That does not invalidate the general argument, which can be made in a non-contradictory way (our friend eLynah does this all the time), but it does mean that when people start railing about strict controls on government "intrusiveness" it's a good idea to have the salt shaker on standby.
        Cornell University
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        • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

          Originally posted by joecct View Post
          What worries me is another attempt at "but it's for the children!". When somebody says that, I automatically check if my wallet is still there.
          I wait for someone to say they automatically check their wallet for spending regarding the elderly. Apart from some level of school funding, which is a necessity, the government really spends very little on children even on basic things like nutrition, basic medical care, etc. The stark reality is we pour huge sums into caring for the elderly, particularly near the end of their lives, but very little into setting up kids to be healthy in life, probably leading to a lot more spending on those kids to try to keep them healthy down the road when they are older. It's a tough conversation as no one wants to neglect the elderly, but it's a reality.
          Originally posted by Priceless
          Good to see you're so reasonable.
          Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
          Very well, said.
          Originally posted by Rover
          A fair assessment Bob.

          Comment


          • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

            Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
            I wait for someone to say they automatically check their wallet for spending regarding the elderly. Apart from some level of school funding, which is a necessity, the government really spends very little on children even on basic things like nutrition, basic medical care, etc. The stark reality is we pour huge sums into caring for the elderly, particularly near the end of their lives, but very little into setting up kids to be healthy in life, probably leading to a lot more spending on those kids to try to keep them healthy down the road when they are older. It's a tough conversation as no one wants to neglect the elderly, but it's a reality.
            Very well, said. And more proof that the baby boomers will bankrupt us all. Someone should have told them and their peers while they were in office that they needed to put some money away for retirement instead of blowing it all on hookers (war) and blow (tax cuts).
            **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

            Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
            Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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            • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

              We spend wayyyyy too much on end of life care. What sense does it make to spend many thousands of dollars to extend your life a few months when you're already 80 years old and on five different drugs? Sure, let's give old farts chemotherapy to get rid of that slow-growing cancer so that they can then die of an inevitable infection when their WBC count craters.

              Comment


              • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

                Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                I wait for someone to say they automatically check their wallet for spending regarding the elderly. Apart from some level of school funding, which is a necessity, the government really spends very little on children even on basic things like nutrition, basic medical care, etc. The stark reality is we pour huge sums into caring for the elderly, particularly near the end of their lives, but very little into setting up kids to be healthy in life, probably leading to a lot more spending on those kids to try to keep them healthy down the road when they are older. It's a tough conversation as no one wants to neglect the elderly, but it's a reality.
                Agreed.

                I will say there is a difference though between someone who is taking up resources to improve aspects of their life that just come from aging vs. someone who fighting cancer and would otherwise be healthy. The former is where there's often considerable waste.
                Go Gophers!

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                • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

                  Can you imagine how villified (and unelectable) any politician would be who even broaches this subject? This is just one example of many conversations our nation should be having that we don't have because we place so little value on interests beyond self-interest.
                  Originally posted by Priceless
                  Good to see you're so reasonable.
                  Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                  Very well, said.
                  Originally posted by Rover
                  A fair assessment Bob.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

                    Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                    Can you imagine how villified (and unelectable) any politician would be who even broaches this subject? This is just one example of many conversations our nation should be having that we don't have because we place so little value on interests beyond self-interest.
                    We don't have to imagine it.
                    Cornell University
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                    ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
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                    • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

                      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                      That's a stretch.

                      If you want, I'll trot out some Paul Ryan proposals to rein in Medicare.
                      Originally posted by Priceless
                      Good to see you're so reasonable.
                      Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                      Very well, said.
                      Originally posted by Rover
                      A fair assessment Bob.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

                        Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                        That's a stretch.

                        If you want, I'll trot out some Paul Ryan proposals to rein in Medicare.
                        Rein in?

                        You mean destroy.
                        **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                        Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                        Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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                        • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

                          Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
                          Rein in?

                          You mean destroy.
                          No, rein in. Drop the partisan outlook, just for a moment.

                          I know the issue with Ryan is that he didn't cut defense commensurately, which is a problem and would need to be rectified. But, it's beyond dispute that he has put forward proposals to control senior health care spending in the future.
                          Originally posted by Priceless
                          Good to see you're so reasonable.
                          Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                          Very well, said.
                          Originally posted by Rover
                          A fair assessment Bob.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

                            Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                            No, rein in. Drop the partisan outlook, just for a moment.

                            I know the issue with Ryan is that he didn't cut defense commensurately, which is a problem and would need to be rectified. But, it's beyond dispute that he has put forward proposals to control senior health care spending in the future.
                            Vouchers don't rein in the spending they just move it. Got nothing to do with being partisan. By giving me a voucher they are going to increase my out of pocket. Basically a tax increase that's acceptable to Grover and his idiot cronies.
                            **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                            Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                            Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

                              Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
                              Vouchers don't rein in the spending they just move it. Got nothing to do with being partisan. By giving me a voucher they are going to increase my out of pocket. Basically a tax increase that's acceptable to Grover and his idiot cronies.
                              Thanks for clarifying that you're really not interested in reining in health care costs in the future.

                              How on earth do you rein in government spending on healthcare without them spending less, meaning that for the same amount of coverage, people will have to pay more out of pocket? It's simple math. And don't give me gobblydegook about making the system more efficient. Everyone is in favor of that, but it rarely if ever happens and isn't likely to play a major role in controlling spending down the road.
                              Originally posted by Priceless
                              Good to see you're so reasonable.
                              Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                              Very well, said.
                              Originally posted by Rover
                              A fair assessment Bob.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

                                Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                                Thanks for clarifying that you're really not interested in reining in health care costs in the future.

                                How on earth do you rein in government spending on healthcare without them spending less, meaning that for the same amount of coverage, people will have to pay more out of pocket? It's simple math. And don't give me gobblydegook about making the system more efficient. Everyone is in favor of that, but it rarely if ever happens and isn't likely to play a major role in controlling spending down the road.
                                Get the government out of it then. Here's my option to you. Give me universal health care or let me buy my own. And that means I want a law passed that companies can no longer provide health care to their employees. This whole system of some employers doing this, and some doing that, and the government doing that mucks up the market place and drives my costs up.

                                So, which is it. All or none. Cause that's the two ways I want it. And Paul Ryan's hidden tax increase that screws the middle class the most (as they all do) and placates the rich just doesn't cut it for me.
                                **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                                Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                                Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                                Comment

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