MN vs. MN State Mankato: Where Exactly Are The Speed Traps On 169?

[Koho]

Originally Posted by Stauber1

For a number of years I thought Lucia to be among the best in college hockey. But I'm starting to really question that. Maybe he never was, he just benefited from assistants who were great recruiters...or maybe he was, but has since lost that intensity and competitive edge that is required to lead a championship caliber team. Either way, I don't think there is any way you can't start to put some of the blame on the coaching staff.

1. Lucia didn't have Guentzel and Motzko at CC where he took a team with a record of 8-28 to 23-11-5 in one year , following 13 losing seasons, or when he won coach of the year at Fairbanks. So you can't deny he has coaching ability. (That isn't to say that having less effective assistants isn't going to hurt, not that I am in a position to judge that.)

2. I have not been impressed with Motzko as far as his ability to achieve consistency.

3. Has Lucia lost something, I am starting to think that could be the case. I thought Woog was a great coach too, and a bounce here or a bounce there, and there were a few years it could have resulted in a NC given some of the teams he had. But something went wrong at the end.

4. I think the players are definitely an issue, more their mental condition than ability. The coach is definitely partially responsible, but each player has a responsibility too. A coach can only do so much to help a players confidence, and confidence (individual and team) is the issue here. Each individual player needs to figure out how to play themselves back into being confident. Anyone who has played, knows just how much confidence affects how well you can play. And once again, the coach can only take you so far. And I think it is more complicated than the "team of prima donas who won't work" sentiment expressed by a number of people here. A lot of these players are tentative going into the corner, not because they are afraid their hair will be messed up or they think that is someone else's job on the team, but because they don't trust themselves to come out with the puck. So they go in tentatively and take a defensive posture rather than just taking the **** puck. Confidence doesn't return with one win. When it is this bad, a win just feels like you got a little lucky for a change. It is not until a team starts to string together wins and has some strong wins and some come from behind ones when a team like this will start to believe in itself. Right now, this is one of the most fragile teams I remember watching. A 180 from the Wild who played before. The Wild has less relative talent for their league than the Gophs, but you are starting to see (in the limited games I've seen) a belief in themselves that they can come back against almost anyone. When things get tough, they pick it up a notch. None of the Gopher players seem to have the attitude of "get on my shoulders and I'll start moving us". I don't know if this can be turned around at this point.

So I guess what I am saying is that Lucia's record indicates he is a quality coach so let's not say he just got lucky with assistants. However, Is very good coaching record can only balance out so much mediocrity. There is plenty of blame to go around, but I have to admit, with each week, I lose a little more confidence in Lucia and am starting to wonder if he has lost something.

On another note, there seems to be a Catch-22 here. On one hand, with all the players underperforming, it would seem to reduce the odds of each individual potential early departure. On the other hand, they are performing so poorly, NHL teams might start to buy into the "lack of development" arguement Garth Snow used for pulling players early.

Has the sky fallen, or is that just my perception?

[redheadzeb]

Originally Posted by Bakunin

I think letting Guentzel go / forcing him out was a big mistake.

Originally Posted by Stauber1

I, truly and wholly, could not agree more.

Originally Posted by Jockstock

Coach Guentzel was a player's coach. He was easy to talk to and always encouraging. Real good guy.

Three years ago, I was not alone in seriously wanting [and hoping for] Mike Guentzel to be our next coach. This recent summer, the same. Ultimately, we now know Buisman's priority at this time is football (which is fine, I guess) and renewed Jutting to 4 more years because, in my humble opinion, it was easy.

Interesting note: I believe Guentzel is still out there, ripe for a D1 head coaching possition being currently at USHL Des Moines.

[HarleyMC]

Good post Koho. I agree the confidence factor is critical in trying to turn a season like this around. I think there are a number of factors that may correlate such as a lack of confidence, frustration, trying to compensate by "gripping the stick" too much and even some apathy at times.

From a player perspective, the senior leadership does not seem to command enough determination and respect to inspire this team. There are no standout players that can almost single handedly carry the team. Schroeder has some of that potential, but tends to be more of a play maker and thrives off of a strong supporting cast.

I agree Lucia is a good coach and has a proven record to support that. However, it seems to me that he gets frustrated to easily and appears to throw up his hands as if to say "look I've done all I can". He has expressed that a number of times in interviews. I just continue to reflect on coaches that get results no matter what.

He also has expressed in interviews that in his view the team is not capable of coming back from 2-4 goal deficits. IMO that is not the kind of leadership that inspires and demonstrates belief in a group of guys who are struggling for answers.

I do think you are correct in your assessment that Lucia appears to have lost some of the intensity and drive necessary to bring a team out of the doldrums of the bottom of the WCHA standings. It doesn't help to have Hill on the bench who IMO does not have the persona to inspire the team. Grant is new and he is the one that I think can be a source of inspiration at a time like this.

Looking ahead, if they don't come out of this tonight and instead go 6L/7G the situation will be very bleak. They essentially need to win the remaining WCHA games this year to go into the second half with some hope. But the schedule for the second half is brutal and ominous for a team like this. /at this point the only team I think they can really hang with in the second half is UAA ....

[SCSU Euro]

Originally Posted by Brenthoven

Great. Fonderwuck is here to post. Just like siouxinminny. Shows up when his team decides to win. Yippee.

If it makes you feel any better, then he'll only be around after about 30% of the games.

Originally Posted by Koho

I have not been impressed with Motzko as far as his ability to achieve consistency.

Neither have I, when its come to coaching. But I think the point he was making was recruiting, and St. Cloud has landed some players that even I found myself asking, "How did St. Cloud land him?"

[wasmania]

Originally Posted by Jockstock

Coach Guentzel was a player's coach. He was easy to talk to and always encouraging. Real good guy.

Funny he was let go. Lucia likes his coaches to be "encouraging".

[state of hockey]

About to head down to Mankato. This ought to be good.

[ScoobyDoo]

Originally Posted by Bakunin

Since it's the coach that recruits the players, the blame falls squarely on Lucia for failing to recruit players that are motivated. Talent doesn't do a * bit of good if there's no heart to go with it.

I agree. This is the largest group of unmotivated NHL draft picks ever assembled. I thought part of college was the motivation to dominate it to move on to the next level. I guess I was wrong.

[CavalryNate]

Regardless of the outcome tonight, this will be considered a positive for the Mavericks... What's more - We go to Bemidji next weekend, holding our breath through another tough series.

I NEVER would have thought a weekend series with Bemidji would be more intimidating than one with the Gophers a week prior.

I thought we needed a new regime in Mankato. That doesn't matter right now...
However, It's almost certain the U of M is in need of something different.

[Koho]

Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo

I agree. This is the largest group of unmotivated NHL draft picks ever assembled. I thought part of college was the motivation to dominate it to move on to the next level. I guess I was wrong.

I keep coming back to the fact that I can only be so critical of college recruiting. I don't pretend to be an expert on recruiting and scouting as it is done at the NCAA level, but I know they don't have a team of scouts watching players week by week before recruiting them. For many of the players, they have to rely on a HS coaches opinion and a handfull of chances to watch the player on which to base their decision. The decision is made when they are still Sophmores in HS in many cases. And who among the current players did not to appear to be leaders in HS? The few I knew of I would not have predicted to have turned out like they are this year. Finally, the NHL teams which do have professional scouts scouring the country, would not have chosen players to play in the NHL for their business if they didn't think they had what it took to play in college, much less the Pros. There is a lot of luck in recruiting. It is easy to have perfect hindsight.

[ScoobyDoo]

Originally Posted by Koho

I keep coming back to the fact that I can only be so critical of college recruiting. I don't pretend to be an expert on recruiting and scouting as it is done at the NCAA level, but I know they don't have a team of scouts watching players week by week before recruiting them. For many of the players, they have to rely on a HS coaches opinion and a handfull of chances to watch the player on which to base their decision. The decision is made when they are still Sophmores in HS in many cases. And who among the current players did not to appear to be leaders in HS? The few I knew of I would not have predicted to have turned out like they are this year. Finally, the NHL teams which do have professional scouts scouring the country, would not have chosen players to play in the NHL for their business if they didn't think they had what it took to play in college, much less the Pros. There is a lot of luck in recruiting. It is easy to have perfect hindsight.

I agree. But to have such a large number of misses at the same time seems beyond comprehension.

[The Sicatoka]

John Hill is a downgrade from Motzko or Guentzel. Sorry. Just is.

The only life I saw in the replay (and what's with the Mild trumping the Goldies?) was from a freshie former Fargo Farce player. That's pitiful.

I expect to see Schroder's photo on my next carton of Land-o-Lakes milk. No, wait, I drink Cass-Clay.

[The Sicatoka]

I'm back, wearing my Kevlar vest with the ceramic plates put in, so I'm ready.

Lucia's national championship teams, didn't he have:
a) some "diversity" (non-Minnesotans)
b) some of Woo-oo-oo-oo--oo-oog's recruits also.

[Koho]

Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo

I agree. But to have such a large number of misses at the same time seems beyond comprehension.

That is why I am finally starting to question if Lucia has lost something as far as motivation. Then again, there have always been some players (Tallackson as a Gopher example) who showed flashes of skill beyond where they ever progressed, even when playing on teams that didn't have as much of a team confidence problem as this one, but never reached the apparent potential. So maybe part of the problem is a certain amount of just bad luck with a higher number of guys who just weren't meant to reach their apparent potential. I guess I don't know how much to assign to coaching and how much to the individuals own personality. I think it is a mixture as evidenced by some of the pro players who developed at the U.

And once again, I won't blame the coaches for choosing players who just don't go that far, since they don't evaluate enough to know how a kid will really turn out. As I've pointed out, this is why NHL teams pick so many players. Because many will never reach their potential and NHL teams have the luxury of dropping underperformers. Colleges don't have the luxury of taking twice as many players as they need and then keeping or getting rid of them based on day to day performance. And they obviously can't keep a great player for 10 years either.

I guess the point of all my blathering is everyone seems to explain the situation with one quick explanation/blame. I think it is a combination of factors and I put less on recruiting than most. I bet if you showed MN's roster to all the coaches in the country 4 years ago as well as their own, along with their draft positions and all the info MN had when they selected them, you'd be hard pressed to find a coach (based on perceived potential) who would choose their future roster over MN's.

[dxmnkd316]

Originally Posted by The Sicatoka

I'm back, wearing my Kevlar vest with the ceramic plates put in, so I'm ready.

Lucia's national championship teams, didn't he have:
a) some "diversity" (non-Minnesotans)
b) some of Woo-oo-oo-oo--oo-oog's recruits also.

1. Yes, this is sorely needed
2. Yes and no. THis is a very common misconception. Rather than pass off someone else's post as my own, I'll point you to this one:

http://www.gopherpucklive.com/forum/...272838#p272775

[ScoobyDoo]

Originally Posted by The Sicatoka

I'm back, wearing my Kevlar vest with the ceramic plates put in, so I'm ready.

Lucia's national championship teams, didn't he have:
a) some "diversity" (non-Minnesotans)
b) some of Woo-oo-oo-oo--oo-oog's recruits also.

a) Have some, or tried to have some.
b) myth

since you're an outsider maybe you can explain what's wrong. a and b are red meat with no substance as far as I'm concerned. something else is amiss.

[The Sicatoka]

Thanks for pointing out the myth. That's why I said "didn't he have" because I was suspect of it.

Scoob: The answer to your "what's wrong" is at post 171. I'll bill you account.

[Stauber1]

Originally Posted by Koho

I guess I don't know how much to assign to coaching and how much to the individuals own personality.



I guess the point of all my blathering is everyone seems to explain the situation with one quick explanation/blame. I think it is a combination of factors and I put less on recruiting than most. I bet if you showed MN's roster to all the coaches in the country 4 years ago as well as their own, along with their draft positions and all the info MN had when they selected them, you'd be hard pressed to find a coach (based on perceived potential) who would choose their future roster over MN's.

For the first point, I agree. I don't know exactly how much fault falls where. But the fact is Lucia is the coach. Things have been getting progressively worse. While the players certainly deserve to be catching heat, the guy who is paid to lead the team has to take the responsibility when his team doesn't live up to potential. Maybe not the first year, or the second, but when it gets to year 3 and things just keep getting worse...

And I think that you look at the roster, and can make that type of claim about coaches around the country wishing they had it, just speaks to that fact. Even if just half these guys were over-valued or don't have what it takes personally to reach their potential, that still leaves 10 NHL caliber players on the team. It's hard for me to swallow that ALL these guys simply aren't as good as people thought, or aren't made of the stuff needed to make progress toward the next level. Even if that is the case, than that seems to be a statement about the ability to assess character in the recruiting process.

Again, I really hope I am proved wrong. I will be the first to admit I was wrong. But there is simply no excuse for this team to be this bad, for this long. The responsibility has to come down on the guy at the top.

[SCSU Euro]

Originally Posted by Koho

Colleges don't have the luxury of taking twice as many players as they need and then keeping or getting rid of them based on day to day performance.

Somebody should tell the Badgers.

[ScoobyDoo]

Originally Posted by Stauber1

And I think that you look at the roster, and can make that type of claim about coaches around the country wishing they had it, just speaks to that fact. Even if just half these guys were over-valued or don't have what it takes personally to reach their potential, that still leaves 10 NHL caliber players on the team. .

There isn't 10. Not even close.

[The Sicatoka]

Scoob: One last thought besides Post 171.

There is nobody in the "treasured M" defensive corps that remotely intimidates an opponent offensively or defensively.

Honestly, which of the UM defensemen would dress (top six) for DU or UND right now? Don't say Ness. They way he's playing Joe Gleason would play ahead of him. And Leddy is proving he's soft physically. Harsh, but I believe the "eye tests" are there.