Club Hockey Is a Joke

[davinchi]

Club hockey isn't real college hockey. Penn State will never go DI, and the Big ten will always be a big zero...

I hope my post is taken as seriously as Crazy ed is on here...I was just wondering where my good friend is...haven't seen his commentary on here in a while and thought I would see if he would creep out of his cave. Maybe he is at a Iowa/Lindenwood game with his face painted...

And now for a real question for all the ACHA fans out there...are/has Major junior players ever been allowed to play ACHA at any division?

IIRC, Ballgame is an ACHA coach...can you shed some light on it? Since ACHA is not under the umbrella of the NCAA, I was wondering what their rules are on amateurism. Also, did St. Clair college in Canada apply for ACHA membership?

[MikeAnderson]

Originally Posted by davinchi

Since ACHA is not under the umbrella of the NCAA, I was wondering what their rules are on amateurism.

The ACHA eligibility rules are on page 18 of the manual.

[CrazierEddie]

Originally Posted by davinchi

Club hockey isn't real college hockey. Penn State will never go DI, and the Big ten will always be a big zero...

I hope my post is taken as seriously as Crazy ed is on here...I was just wondering where my good friend is...haven't seen his commentary on here in a while and thought I would see if he would creep out of his cave. Maybe he is at a Iowa/Lindenwood game with his face painted...

And now for a real question for all the ACHA fans out there...are/has Major junior players ever been allowed to play ACHA at any division?

IIRC, Ballgame is an ACHA coach...can you shed some light on it? Since ACHA is not under the umbrella of the NCAA, I was wondering what their rules are on amateurism. Also, did St. Clair college in Canada apply for ACHA membership?

Sory, been busy at work. Nice troll post.

[ballgame]

why bring him out?

[GeoffissiffoeG]

Originally Posted by davinchi

And now for a real question for all the ACHA fans out there...are/has Major junior players ever been allowed to play ACHA at any division?

Steve Savor played at least one season for Florida State. I know that seaon they weren't in the ACHA. Not sure if he played while they were. He's the coach now.

[davinchi]

Ballgame, isn't fun to get the guy going a bit? I like reading his posts. He is so alone on his island. I can't believe he is still so mad at being a healthy scratch that he tries to badmouth club hockey. If he is such an advocate for NCAA I wonder why he doesn't stay on the DIII boards? Did he get scratched from even the message boards of DIII?

[SoCalSiouxFan]

Originally Posted by davinchi

Club hockey isn't real college hockey.

I am from North Dakota and am now living in Southern California.

I just can't understand how Alumni from the top DI hockey schools can be satisfied with club hockey in Southern California. I confess that have never been to a USC or UCLA game here in SoCal, but that is because I would rather see real college hockey on cable or Direct TV.

Hockey back east is serious business. If Grand Forks, North Dakota can routinely sell more than 11,000 tickets to a hockey game and have its games broadcast nationally by satellite, one would think that Los Angeles based teams like USC or UCLA could sell out an arena like the Honda Center or the Staples center and attract a national TV audience, if they were D1.

Also club hockey players are for the most part not professionals. North Dakota, for example, has 15 NHL draft picks on its roster, they all could be collecting a pay check in the AHL or ECHL, but instead have chosen to play college hockey, because the coaching and the training facilities are superior to the AHL and ECHL. Their primary purpose for attending college is to prepare for a career in professional hockey. And for a successful program like North Dakota most will play professionally.

[se41]

Originally Posted by SoCalSiouxFan

I am from North Dakota and am now living in Southern California.

I just can't understand how Alumni from the top DI hockey schools can be satisfied with club hockey in Southern California. I confess that have never been to a USC or UCLA game here in SoCal, but that is because I would rather see real college hockey on cable or Direct TV.

Hockey back east is serious business. If Grand Forks, North Dakota can routinely sell more than 11,000 tickets to a hockey game and have its games broadcast nationally by satellite, one would think that Los Angeles based teams like USC or UCLA could sell out an arena like the Honda Center or the Staples center and attract a national TV audience, if they were D1.

Also club hockey players are for the most part not professionals. North Dakota, for example, has 15 NHL draft picks on its roster, they all could be collecting a pay check in the AHL or ECHL, but instead have chosen to play college hockey, because the coaching and the training facilities are superior to the AHL and ECHL. Their primary purpose for attending college is to prepare for a career in professional hockey. And for a successful program like North Dakota most will play professionally.

There are some flaws in your logic chief.

1. LA and Grand Forks are not the same place. People in GF watch the Sioux play because it's a hockey state and it's warmer in Ralph than outside in January.

2. Correct, they are not professionals, a handful have gone on to play pro (mostly very low minor league stuff in Europe) but the ACHA allows players to go to a school they want to attend (Who honestly wants to go to the Milwaukee School of Engineering where the Guy to Girl ration is 4 to 1) and get a chance to hit somebody before they drink beer all weekend.

3. Those 15 draft picks COULD NOT be playing in the AHL and ECHL right now. Some of them could but not all of them, THAT is why they are in college, because they AREN't ready for the pro's yet.

4. You'd be pretty hard pressed to find a lot of college coaches that are over the heads of AHL coaches. Dean Blais was not successful in the NHL.

Since your name is SiouxFAN, I'll go ahead and speculate you never played the game and that's the reason you think your argument is a good one.

If you siphoned off the top 10 D-1 and top 5 D-2 club teams and formed a NCAA D3 league with them, you would not be able to tell the difference other than the uniforms say Penn State, Oklahoma, or Lindenwood instead of University of Wisconsin Oshkosh. Are the club teams going to be able to play night in and night out with the Norwich's, Oswego's, and Middlebury's of the world? No, then again a lot of NCAA D3 schools can't say that either.

[SoCalSiouxFan]

Originally Posted by se41

There are some flaws in your logic chief.

1. LA and Grand Forks are not the same place. People in GF watch the Sioux play because it's a hockey state and it's warmer in Ralph than outside in January.

2. Correct, they are not professionals, a handful have gone on to play pro (mostly very low minor league stuff in Europe) but the ACHA allows players to go to a school they want to attend (Who honestly wants to go to the Milwaukee School of Engineering where the Guy to Girl ration is 4 to 1) and get a chance to hit somebody before they drink beer all weekend.

3. Those 15 draft picks COULD NOT be playing in the AHL and ECHL right now. Some of them could but not all of them, THAT is why they are in college, because they AREN't ready for the pro's yet.

4. You'd be pretty hard pressed to find a lot of college coaches that are over the heads of AHL coaches. Dean Blais was not successful in the NHL.

Since your name is SiouxFAN, I'll go ahead and speculate you never played the game and that's the reason you think your argument is a good one.

If you siphoned off the top 10 D-1 and top 5 D-2 club teams and formed a NCAA D3 league with them, you would not be able to tell the difference other than the uniforms say Penn State, Oklahoma, or Lindenwood instead of University of Wisconsin Oshkosh. Are the club teams going to be able to play night in and night out with the Norwich's, Oswego's, and Middlebury's of the world? No, then again a lot of NCAA D3 schools can't say that either.

Los Angeles supports two NHL teams already. There are more than enough hockey fans here to support D1 hockey.

Players go to D1 teams for the quality of its hockey program. North Dakota for example has training facilities that exceeds NHL standards. Facilities better than most pro teams. No club team I know of comes close to having their own private NHL quality training facilities.

DI teams also to some extent have access to NHL players and coaches. Undrafted DI players get invited to NHL developmental camps. NHL players often return to college in the offseason to train and skate with college players. For example, I recall that two years ago Eddie Belfour trained at North Dakota in the offseason and the goalies picked up quite a few training and conditioning tips from him.

If you look at the D1 teams you would have to siphon off maybe the top 30 teams just to get down to DII level.

Maybe a club team could be competative against DI teams if they had the training facilities, ice time, a full coaching staff, and the same level of commitment. But generally they don't.

[Jumbolaya]

Originally Posted by SoCalSiouxFan

Los Angeles supports two NHL teams already. There are more than enough hockey fans here to support D1 hockey.

The travel costs associated with a hockey program in Southern California would be brutal, and they would have to draw a ton of fans for home games to recoup such expenses. In the absence of multiple schools starting up programs at once to help mitigate the amount of travel necessary, I just don't see the viability of college hockey in that region.

Players go to D1 teams for the quality of its hockey program. North Dakota for example has training facilities that exceeds NHL standards. Facilities better than most pro teams. No club team I know of comes close to having their own private NHL quality training facilities.

C'mon... pointing to The Ralph as an example of the facilities at the D1 level is completely unfair. No other school has facilities on that level, including traditional powers like Minnesota, Michigan, BC, and BU. The vast majority of arenas in D1 hockey hold somewhere between 3,000 and 6,000 spectators. Heck, even Mariucci Arena looks pedestrian in comparison to the Ralph. Not every program has a crazy, Nazi-sympathizing benefactor willing to pour $100 million into a monumental structure.

If you look at the D1 teams you would have to siphon off maybe the top 30 teams just to get down to DII level.

What does this have to do with anything? The poster above was comparing top club programs to D3, which is a legit comparison since there are several crossover games between the two levels every year. Besides, D2 hockey is all but nonexistent now (only six teams remaining, which compete against D3 but are ineligible for the D3 tourney), and the top D3 programs are light years better than their D2 counterparts.

[ADRdogs]

Mike Leone played one semester at Utica and was there top scorer when he transferred to the Adrian D-III team. He did a great job centering the second line improving there production, and would have been on the first line this year, but he transferred to Lindenwood this year. Mike is tied for the lead in scoring on the team so far this year. Thursday night Lindenwood plays Adrian's club team in Adrian so I will get a first hand look at the difference between Club D-1 and NCAA D-III. I know that is only one comparison, I'll get a better look Thursday.

[CanuckGoalie]

Originally Posted by davinchi

Also, did St. Clair college in Canada apply for ACHA membership?

Yes, St.Clair applied for ACHA membership in the Division 1. It was rejected and was told to apply for Division 2. St.Clair declined the offer after playing a D1 schedule and beating every team (also winning the Penn State tournament and Lindenwood tournament). Yes we had some ex-major junior players on our team (3), but we knew that they wouldn't be allowed to play if we were accepted.

having played NCAA D3 and ACHA hockey, i would say that only 40% of club hockey is, as you put it, a joke. it is getting better and probably will get better with the economy slipping and the need for financial aid increasing.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by CanuckGoalie

Yes, St.Clair applied for ACHA membership in the Division 1. It was rejected and was told to apply for Division 2. St.Clair declined the offer after playing a D1 schedule and beating every team (also winning the Penn State tournament and Lindenwood tournament). Yes we had some ex-major junior players on our team (3), but we knew that they wouldn't be allowed to play if we were accepted.

having played NCAA D3 and ACHA hockey, i would say that only 40% of club hockey is, as you put it, a joke. it is getting better and probably will get better with the economy slipping and the need for financial aid increasing.

Those St. Clair - Penn State games were fun. Are they still playing in the senior loop in SW Ontario?

[texashockeycoach]

Originally Posted by CanuckGoalie

Yes, St.Clair applied for ACHA membership in the Division 1. It was rejected and was told to apply for Division 2. St.Clair declined the offer after playing a D1 schedule and beating every team (also winning the Penn State tournament and Lindenwood tournament). Yes we had some ex-major junior players on our team (3), but we knew that they wouldn't be allowed to play if we were accepted.

Completely incorrect. I was there for the 2005 and 2006 vote.

It had to be voted on by ACHA as a whole to amend the bylaws to allow a non-American school into the league. The D-1 teams that were present were voting as a block and thought that they could bully the other divisions into accepting the amendment because they wanted more quality teams to play against. They were actually close to getting accepted in 2005 but that was because most of teams didn't understand what was really going on.

The 2006 meeting was very interesting. I can't remember the full details because it has been so long but there was shadiness going on with the St. Claire team in that they weren't even registered with Hockey Canada.

A fairly high up USA hockey rep came to that meeting and gave us all a 30 minute presentation on why St. Claire was so shady. After that the whole idea was pretty much killed. Not even the D-1 teams were voting for them.

[ECACST]

The overwhelming majority of D1/D3 Players do not enter NCAA Hockey programs as True Freshman. Most show up 2-3 years later.
Not every talented player (Triple A) and their parents wants to delay College to enter a NCAA program to maybe get ice time. Some parents have the perspecitive of knowing talented little Johnny is not going to earn the bucks to offset the college delay... And then Club Hockey is a well rounded approach to the Collegiate experience. Plus they get to have the total college experience as the practice load is not way too demanding.
There are a handful of players most playing on National Development U18/U17 who go directly to Division 1 Teams and make a difference.
Thus Club Hockey continues to grow and thrive and it is a great addition to the experience of College however maybe not for the Fan of the Game.

[CanuckGoalie]

Originally Posted by SteveP

Those St. Clair - Penn State games were fun. Are they still playing in the senior loop in SW Ontario?

Those were great games to play in. Sadly, St.Clair has folded its hockey program. The Senior Hockey League didn't work out.

[CanuckGoalie]

Originally Posted by texashockeycoach

Completely incorrect. I was there for the 2005 and 2006 vote.

It had to be voted on by ACHA as a whole to amend the bylaws to allow a non-American school into the league. The D-1 teams that were present were voting as a block and thought that they could bully the other divisions into accepting the amendment because they wanted more quality teams to play against. They were actually close to getting accepted in 2005 but that was because most of teams didn't understand what was really going on.

The 2006 meeting was very interesting. I can't remember the full details because it has been so long but there was shadiness going on with the St. Claire team in that they weren't even registered with Hockey Canada.

A fairly high up USA hockey rep came to that meeting and gave us all a 30 minute presentation on why St. Claire was so shady. After that the whole idea was pretty much killed. Not even the D-1 teams were voting for them.

Thank you for shining some light onto the subject. As a player we were just told a couple of things. I don't think St.Clair was as 'shady' as you put it. It was a very financially strong program and I loved every minute there. I would agree that somethings weren't clear (Hockey Canada registration being one) but I wish that there was a way to include St.Clair into the ACHA circuit.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by CanuckGoalie

Thank you for shining some light onto the subject. As a player we were just told a couple of things. I don't think St.Clair was as 'shady' as you put it. It was a very financially strong program and I loved every minute there. I would agree that somethings weren't clear (Hockey Canada registration being one) but I wish that there was a way to include St.Clair into the ACHA circuit.

The primary issue was the fact that St. Clair was not considered a "4-year" school. Many of the players were in 1, 2 and 3 year certificate programs.

St. Clair was/is one of Ontario's community colleges. Those schools used to have a very good hockey league before several of the schools dropped hockey due to costs.