Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

[norm1909]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread that the requirement to host a championship is a rink with at least 3000 seats.

NCAA DI Frozen Four championship venues average about 18000 in seating capacity!

While the merger isn't scheduled until 2015, Pittsburgh will host the 2013 Men’s Frozen Four at the Consol Energy Center (Capacity 18,087), while Philadelphia’s Wells Fargo Center (fka Wachovia Center) (capacity 19,537) will be the host venue for the 2014 championship.

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

Yeah, I forgot about Utica.

Wasn't there just about 3500 people attending at LP in a venue with basically bottomless seating for D3 hockey? I think playing in front of 2500 people in a packed house with a hot ticket would create a pretty cool environment too.

If we're talking about seating 3000 minimum, that pretty much would only leave Superior and St. Johns in the western region.

Lake Placid is listed at 7,700...but back a few years ago we had 5,500 or so there and it was packed. Yes the upper bowl wasn't full, but the lower bowl was packed. HAD Plattsburgh been in the FF, it would have been packed again. Does that mean we should hinder everything on Plattsburgh being in it? No. But you're going down a path we faught with for YEARS out East. It becomes nearly impossible to get a ticket to an NCAA FF game. Especially at smaller DIII rinks. Just look at the data. Why do you want to tell nearly 1,500 - 3,000 people no you can not go to the FF this year sorry? Maybe out west when the Eastern fans don't travel as much as they would if it was in their back yard.

I do love the "packed house" feel, and I will not dissagree with you there...HOWEVER, how many teams can even hold 3,500 fans? And then include the fact that if you have it at a "home" site that "home" site will take away TONS of tickets for Joe Public. Yes it would be nice to see 7,700 people at LP every year. A Plattsburgh/Oswego FF would probably come close. Just a few years ago we had a Final Four with 2 Western schools, and 2 Eastern schools with little to no following (compared to others) and still drew 3,100+ for the Championship game. Hot ticket?? More like impossible ticket (again at least out East). We use to have several fans who just simply couldn't get a ticket because they use to hold them at smaller rinks. Yes I would go sit in line at 3am to get my tickets, but that was also pre-father era, pre-career, where it wasn't a big deal. Would SNC or any other "major" program out there come all the way out East if you were only allowed 200 tickets *which after family, friends, alumni ect gets down to about 100*, are you going to drive all the way out here and "hope" for a ticket?? Or is it nice knowing, we have a 4,000-6,000 size rink where (unless its the perfect storm OSU,PSU,Norwich) tickets WILL be there?

Those schools with 3,000 + (I know Oswego is, and I know Plattsburgh no longer is at 3,500)

Utica - 4000
Oswego - ???
Elmira - 3200
UWS - 3000
St.Johns - 5763
Fitchburg - 4100
Wentworth - 5900
Concordia - 3000
Suffolk - 3684

Only 15% of DIII schools play infront of (on average thats listed) 50% capacity...most are in the 25%-30% so it isn't much of a shock for the majority of DIII. (except maybe the normal Norwich, Oswego, Plattsburgh, St.Norberts who are all 65%+ on average capacity.

[Laker28]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

I like the idea of combining the women with the men if for no other reason than to cut down on the time when there are no games. We did everything we could think of and afford to do in Placid on Saturday and still had over two hours to kill before the championship game. We wound up watching some of the Can-Am games over in the 1932 rink but that just isn't on the same level as teams competing for a national title. The more hockey I get to watch late in the season the more I like it.

Here is another thing that some people might not think of in regards to have the FF at Placid. Friday we had a family from New Jersey sitting near us that had never seen a DIII game before. The two boys were there for the Can-Am tourney and decided to go to the Oswego/Amherst game. They couldn't believe the speed of the game, they had figured D3 was for hacks that were too slow and talentless to play anywhere else. If the event was still at Campus sites, those kids wouldn't have been there and know knows you might see them playing D3 someday. There were more than a few folks at the games that went because they happened to be in town and it sounded like fun and I am sure a lot of them will attend more games in the future if they get the chance.

[The Real Georgia Peach]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

Having the DIII and DI tournaments will marginalize DIII. I can't think of any reason why a DI fan would care to watch a DIII game, other than idle curiosity. Having the DIII men and women's tournament at the same venue would at least have a solid DIII fan base to draw from. Also, a neutral site is much preferable than a college campus. Lake Placid is a near perfect site for DIII, as is Minneapolis/St. Paul for alternate sites. A destination site, known in advance, would provide a much larger fan participation,(and $$ for NCAA), with a site that offers an economy of scale for DIII. DIII will never provide more than 6,000 fans for a final, and that will make a 15,000 seat barn look empty.

[norm1909]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

Having the DIII and DI tournaments will marginalize DIII. I can't think of any reason why a DI fan would care to watch a DIII game, other than idle curiosity. Having the DIII men and women's tournament at the same venue would at least have a solid DIII fan base to draw from. Also, a neutral site is much preferable than a college campus. Lake Placid is a near perfect site for DIII, as is Minneapolis/St. Paul for alternate sites. A destination site, known in advance, would provide a much larger fan participation,(and $$ for NCAA), with a site that offers an economy of scale for DIII. DIII will never provide more than 6,000 fans for a final, and that will make a 15,000 seat barn look empty.

Or from the promoters perspective -

Having the DIII and DI tournaments will enhance DI. I can't think of any reason why a DIII fan wouldn't jump on the chance to watch a DI game, what an opportunity. Having the DIII men and women's tournament at the same venue would marginalize the experence for the women. Also, a neutral site is much preferable than a college campus, the DI venue, known in advance, can provide for a much larger fan participation,(and $$ for NCAA), ease of public access and with a site that offers an economy of scale for both DI & DIII. DIII will provide upwards of 6,000 fans for a final, and that will help entice the marketing potential to the championship host.

[NUProf]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

Or from the promoters perspective -

Having the DIII and DI tournaments will enhance DI. I can't think of any reason why a DIII fan wouldn't jump on the chance to watch a DI game, what an opportunity. Having the DIII men and women's tournament at the same venue would marginalize the experence for the women. Also, a neutral site is much preferable than a college campus, the DI venue, known in advance, can provide for a much larger fan participation,(and $$ for NCAA), ease of public access and with a site that offers an economy of scale for both DI & DIII. DIII will provide upwards of 6,000 fans for a final, and that will help entice the marketing potential to the championship host.

Combine the men's and women's at a single site - that is a no-brainer.

The combined DI/DIII finals is just a non-starter. The logistics on dates and the thought that even if the finals drew twice what they do at Placid would leave an incredible number of empty seats. Talk about people rattling around the venue. To me it makes no sense, while the combined men's/women's championship does. Norwich has shown with a combined ECAC East championship weekend the last two years that it can be done (and done very well), so the NCAA with all their resources could certainly pull it off.

[LakerEagleLover]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

Or from the promoters perspective -
Having the DIII and DI tournaments will enhance DI. I can't think of any reason why a DIII fan wouldn't jump on the chance to watch a DI game, what an opportunity...DIII will provide upwards of 6,000 fans for a final, and that will help entice the marketing potential to the championship host.

Just my thoughts - If D3 fans are in town with nothing better to do and wanted to watch from lousy seats (D1 fans get the best seats to their games), I suppose some D3 fans would watch in person... Is D1 hockey in such bad shape they have to import fans (D3) to fill the house???

If you want to be generous, let's assume LP drew a total of 4,000 D3 fans this past weekend - a good number of them (my guess 1,200 on Friday night from Oz) with several hundred MORE arriving on Saturday...the weather was perfect for a drive to the ADK. So why there would be 6,000 in a place like Tampa (or anywhere else not in the Northeast) given distance, $$$, time, $$$...did I say $$$?

I should amend my "northeast" remark to point out that if the D1/D3 tourney was in MPS/St Paul, there would be precious few D1 tickets for D3 fans....but there would be more fans than a place like Tampa...

I will go out on a limb and say HALF of the D3 crowd stays home...so now you are back to a crowd that looks like the Pathfinder during Winter break 1,800 if the snow depths in Oz are under 3 feet

Oh, what about the D1 fans you ask? They will be busy consuming free food and beer provided by their Alumni Office and Booster Club pre-gaming for the reason they made the trip....and they don't bring their kids to watch Oswego or St Norbert when they have junior already committed to Michigan...

It seems we are all preaching to the choir here - if you share this opinion and want to preserve our little place in the hockey universe, then contact your college President, AD, Coach and Alumni/Development Office asap and keep the opinions flowing...it may help - it may not, but doing nothing will accomplish nothing IMHO....

[norm1909]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

Combine the men's and women's at a single site - that is a no-brainer.

The combined DI/DIII finals is just a non-starter. The logistics on dates and the thought that even if the finals drew twice what they do at Placid would leave an incredible number of empty seats. Talk about people rattling around the venue. To me it makes no sense, while the combined men's/women's championship does. Norwich has shown with a combined ECAC East championship weekend the last two years that it can be done (and done very well), so the NCAA with all their resources could certainly pull it off.

I think if it was a "no brainer" the NCAA would have just the team to put it in place.

I also think the combination of the DI & DIII championships is a done deal - and that it goes back to 2009.*

* "Fall 2008: Solicit bids for the Men’s Frozen Four for 2013, 2014 and 2015 (to be awarded in the summer of 2009)."

NCAA Awards Frozen Four to Pittsburgh in 2013 and Philadelphia in 2014 - but NOT 2015 - the proposed combination date (which STILL hasn't been announced)

[LakerEagleLover]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

I think if it was a "no brainer" the NCAA would have just the team to put it in place.

I also think the combination of the DI & DIII championships is a done deal - and that it goes back to 2009.*

* "Fall 2008: Solicit bids for the Men’s Frozen Four for 2013, 2014 and 2015 (to be awarded in the summer of 2009)."

NCAA Awards Frozen Four to Pittsburgh in 2013 and Philadelphia in 2014 - but NOT 2015 - the proposed combination date (which STILL hasn't been announced)

Are you suggesting we just lay back and enjoy it?

[norm1909]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

Are you suggesting we just lay back and enjoy it?

Some would say that is the best way to deal with getting screwed

In all seriousness, at this point, I think at a minimum, the NCAA is going to implement it, at least on a trial basis, there appears to have been way to much effort (based on the time frames) that it has reached terminal velocity.

What should "we" do? IMO, think of ways to make lemonade and push for more transparancy in the quasi-public entity known as the NCAA. Something of this magnitude should not have gone under the radar for as long as it did.

[LakerFan99]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

It's pretty clear that this is about the almighty dollar. If the NCAA can save 50% of what they spend on the D3 FF by combining it with the D1 FF, then that's what they're going to do. The thoughts of D3 fans don't seem to register much. If they can save money, that's what they'll do.

What you'll end up with is 4 D3 teams playing their semifinal games in a near empty arena, since many of the D3 fans who usually go to the FF won't pay the extra money to see a combined FF. I know I probably won't. Of the D1 fans that are there, most may not care to watch D3. Like Lou said they'll be killing time before the D1 games start by pregaming at alumni events. But in the eyes of the NCAA, they're still saving money.

Of course, the same thing can be said of combining the men's and women's FF.

[norm1909]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

It's pretty clear that this is about the almighty dollar. If the NCAA can save 50% of what they spend on the D3 FF by combining it with the D1 FF, then that's what they're going to do. The thoughts of D3 fans don't seem to register much. If they can save money, that's what they'll do.

What you'll end up with is 4 D3 teams playing their semifinal games in a near empty arena, since many of the D3 fans who usually go to the FF won't pay the extra money to see a combined FF. I know I probably won't. Of the D1 fans that are there, most may not care to watch D3. Like Lou said they'll be killing time before the D1 games start by pregaming at alumni events. But in the eyes of the NCAA, they're still saving money.

Of course, the same thing can be said of combining the men's and women's FF.

It also doesn't require even as much as saving the NCAA "50% of what they spend on the D3 FF by combining it with the D1 FF", I suspect they are actually looking at boosting their DI sponsorship & coverage revenue - a modest 10% boost is likely to far exceed any downside to DIII. I do think that the DIII presidental leadership will have to be considered by the NCAA wantabes (bulk of the committee members), so some consideration to the impact on DIII fans will be made, I don't think it will be as bad as it appears (i.e. comparing past DI's with future DI/DIII's), but I do think it will seldom yield a net gain for DIII fans. Perhaps the best thing would be to see Lake Placid become a permanent host for the east DI/DIII Regionals.

[LakerFan99]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

It also doesn't require even as much as saving the NCAA "50% of what they spend on the D3 FF by combining it with the D1 FF", I suspect they are actually looking at boosting their DI sponsorship & coverage revenue - a modest 10% boost is likely to far exceed any downside to DIII. I do think that the DIII presidental leadership will have to be considered by the NCAA wantabes (bulk of the committee members), so some consideration to the impact on DIII fans will be made, I don't think it will be as bad as it appears (i.e. comparing past DI's with future DI/DIII's), but I do think it will seldom yield a net gain for DIII fans. Perhaps the best thing would be to see Lake Placid become a permanent host for the east DI/DIII Regionals.

I threw the 50% number out there arbitrarily. I seem to remember reading that the NCAA had budgeted close the $400,000 for the D-3 tourney. Something tells me they won't spend nearly that much when they combine it with D-1. That PLUS sponsorship opportunities is a win-win for the NCAA.

[jerrynu26]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

Some would say that is the best way to deal with getting screwed

Norm, unacceptable even as a joke.

[norm1909]

Re: Final Four Moving Back to Campus Sites

Norm, unacceptable even as a joke.

Less so when it is not even a funny matter.