UNH Recruits: 2012-2018

[Hokydad]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Interesting that you end up by stating that Hokeydad is lying. In your post you acknowledge that UNH promised MV that he could come in this year, but then changed its mind. Where I come from, when you promise somebody something, and then go back on that promise, it is not honorable. It doesn't matter that UNH was "honest" (and interesting term) with MV last year saying they were changing their prior promise. The ends do not justify the means.
You seem to goad that MV has no other offers as being proof that UNH was "right." You seem to overlook that MV took offense that UNH was dishonest with him, and decided that he did not want to play for dishonest -- I can respect that he made a principled stand not to play for coaches he can't trust, even if it does mean he still has to spend another year in the USHL. MV had offers from Union, but apparently has chosen to go back another year. I don't think anyone contends he is Gaudreau who everyone would snatch up no matter how late in the year UNH cut him loose. (we see even Jon Gilies had limited options -- I suppose he too was "honest" with NU in breaking his commitment for greener pastures). But he is a talented kid, and far better than 3 of the forwards UNH is bringing in -- the only difference being that he has not "aged out" of the USHL while the others have. I have no doubt if UNH had been "honest" with him starting in September, and if he were not very selective, he would be in college this year. Heck, even Laleggia was too late to get a gig in 2010, and went to 2011.

In the end, this leaves an incredibly sour taste, in which UNH seems to have been dishonest with the kid. And given UNH's dubious or convenient assesment of whether Laleggia, Thrush, Sorkin etc. are ready it seems to show that UNH values age more than talent. I think Sorkin and Thush showed that they are "ready" a year earlier than UNH thought, and Laleggia and Downing showed that they were "more than ready" when deferred an extra year. An interesting view that UNH is more confident in having a junior coach develop the player in his 18-19 year season rather than bringing him to UNH to learn under Umile and the staff.

Edit: We see this ocassionally even with BC. The only difference being that York probably is happy things have worked out for Tiefenwerth rather than crowing that BC was right about him because he only ended up at U.Mass.

edit 2: "the only difference" further being that York has won a couple of championships and even then values getting talent on campus to teach them during a freshman year (see Destry Straight) rather than sending kids out to the USHL until they are 20.

Nice post... Dover is a joke.

End of story, UNH lied and kid walked. The lie wasn't, "play another year in USHL"
Give him credit for standing behind his beliefs/convictions.

Had 4+ offers for 2012. Has decided he will go following year. Smart move, no hurry to get there...
2/4 far superior programs, schools and total package. It is a marathon

[Josh Ciocco]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Interesting that you end up by stating that Hokeydad is lying. In your post you acknowledge that UNH promised MV that he could come in this year, but then changed its mind. Where I come from, when you promise somebody something, and then go back on that promise, it is not honorable. It doesn't matter that UNH was "honest" (and interesting term) with MV last year saying they were changing their prior promise. The ends do not justify the means.
You seem to goad that MV has no other offers as being proof that UNH was "right." You seem to overlook that MV took offense that UNH was dishonest with him, and decided that he did not want to play for dishonest -- I can respect that he made a principled stand not to play for coaches he can't trust, even if it does mean he still has to spend another year in the USHL. MV had offers from Union, but apparently has chosen to go back another year. I don't think anyone contends he is Gaudreau who everyone would snatch up no matter how late in the year UNH cut him loose. (we see even Jon Gilies had limited options -- I suppose he too was "honest" with NU in breaking his commitment for greener pastures). But he is a talented kid, and far better than 3 of the forwards UNH is bringing in -- the only difference being that he has not "aged out" of the USHL while the others have. I have no doubt if UNH had been "honest" with him starting in September, and if he were not very selective, he would be in college this year. Heck, even Laleggia was too late to get a gig in 2010, and went to 2011.

In the end, this leaves an incredibly sour taste, in which UNH seems to have been dishonest with the kid. And given UNH's dubious or convenient assesment of whether Laleggia, Thrush, Sorkin etc. are ready it seems to show that UNH values age more than talent. I think Sorkin and Thush showed that they are "ready" a year earlier than UNH thought, and Laleggia and Downing showed that they were "more than ready" when deferred an extra year. An interesting view that UNH is more confident in having a junior coach develop the player in his 18-19 year season rather than bringing him to UNH to learn under Umile and the staff.

Edit: We see this ocassionally even with BC. The only difference being that York probably is happy things have worked out for Tiefenwerth rather than crowing that BC was right about him because he only ended up at U.Mass.

edit 2: "the only difference" further being that York has won a couple of championships and even then values getting talent on campus to teach them during a freshman year (see Destry Straight) rather than sending kids out to the USHL until they are 20.

Ok, since returning to Hockey East in the capacity of Hockey East Analyst I tend to look over the fan forum from time to time to get a feel for the issues around the league from a fans perspective. My eyes usually tend to gaze more so at the UNH threads as it is my alma mater and I have deep ties to the program—and I also have a strong interest in the team. For those out there who do not know who I am I played at UNH from 2003-2007, captaining the team as a senior. I now work for NESN as the Hockey East Analyst, along with Chris Warner I put up all the content on ushr.com and finally I am the recruiting coordinator and asst. coach at Milton Academy. I believe that over the course of the last 4 years I have watched more or as much hockey as any DI coach or NHL scout—I am constantly in the rinks. I have seen just about every UNH recruit with the exception of a couple in western Canada. I remain close to the program and speak with the staff on a very regular basis. There have been numerous occasions throughout the year where I have wanted to post, but felt it was not my place and would not be professional. Having said that, I felt that if I were to post, I would not hide behind a handle, Id do it under my name so everyone associated would know exactly who I was and what my thoughts were.

NCAA Watcher—your post really aggravates me and could not be further from the truth. You are accusing the UNH coaching staff of lying to a player and being dishonest in how the Mike Vecchione situation was handled. Dick Umile has never been dishonest with a player and never will be. Having gone through the recruiting process as a player and having seen numerous kids go through the process I can tell you one thing—the only thing that is ever “promised” to a player is what they will receive in terms of scholarship money and the fact that they will start with a stall in the locker room—nothing else is promised—NOTHING. The year a player is to arrive, how much a player will play and what role the player has are all moving variables and never guaranteed. Any player, Mike Vecchione included, is given a timeline in terms of when the staff plans to bring them in. This does not mean it is a done deal by any means. Any recruit has expectations that they must meet if they would like to come in as scheduled. The player in question was told to go to the USHL and when he proved to be a top player in the league he would come into UNH. He had the opportunity to do so this season—and at one point it was thought he would become a top player in only 1 season in the USHL. That was not the case—he was not a top player in the league this season and was then asked to play another year. This is not uncommon.

You state that the recruit in question is better than 3 forwards UNH is bringing in next season. I do not agree with your assessment, but I am not here to argue that… My question is how can you say that? Have you seen all of UNH’s recruits play? Are you qualified to make that decision? Or are you just making that statement by reading stats and comments online? Scott Borek and Jim Tortorella are two of the best talent evaluators in the country with years of experience and ARE in fact qualified. If UNH felt he could help them win more so than someone else, they would have pushed someone else back or they would have brought them all in at once. Fact is they felt what was best for his development was to play a year in the USHL as opposed to being one of 17 forwards at UNH and rarely—if at all—getting into the lineup. I can tell you from experience there is nothing fun or encouraging about sitting in the stands and watching your team play.

You say that Jerry York just brings players in early, even if they are not prepared and would rather develop them in house as opposed to having them play juniors—and you use Destry Straight as the example and essentially compare that situation to that of Mike Vecchione. Here is the difference, Destry Straight played in 43 of the teams 44 games and most of the time played with Chris Kreider and Kevin Hayes. Destry Straight put up 67 points in 59 games in the BCHL as a 17 year old—this is very impressive. His numbers did in fact tail off a bit in his final year of juniors, and he probably could have used another year. Having said that, by the time BC realized this there was not a better player in the country BC could have brought in opposed to Straight. Also, straight was going to play—he was going to get better because he was in the lineup. BC did not have 12 better forwards than him. Was he ready to step in and play top 6 minutes? No, but he was certainly good enough to be in the lineup every night. Mike Vecchione is far different. UNH has 12 forwards who are better for next season, or at least more prepared to be in the lineup. Mike Vecchione would have struggled to play 10 games. Mike Vecchione put up 30 points as an 18 year old in the USHL vs. Straights 67 points as a 17 year old—there is no comparison here. If you are questioning whether or not it is better to have a kid in the USHL playing top 6 minutes, PP, PK, etc or to be in college and be a healthy scratch on a nightly basis than you know nothing of this game.

I have an issue with you referring to the staff as dishonest and lacking integrity when you know nothing of the men they are. I would highly doubt you have ever met Mike Vecchione or know anything about the situation—certainly not enough to call Dick Umile a liar. I know with 100% certainty that his scholarship was never pulled. Dick Umile and the UNH staff have never pulled a players scholarship off the table. UNH felt what was best for Vecchione was to play another year of juniors, the kid did not agree and the two parties parted ways. I do find it interesting that he is playing another year of juniors anyway and now feels its best for his development. Again, I will reiterate—in the recruiting process the only two things that are PROMISED is the amount of scholarship you are to receive and that you will have a stall in the locker room when you arrive. You are given a timeline as to when you are expected to arrive, and to arrive ON TIME you have to meet certain expectations—no promises are made and I know with 100% certainty that no one on the UNH staff ever PROMISED him he would be brought in for the 2012-2013 season.

Cheers.

[brookie]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Interesting that you end up by stating that Hokeydad is lying. In your post you acknowledge that UNH promised MV that he could come in this year, but then changed its mind. Where I come from, when you promise somebody something, and then go back on that promise, it is not honorable. It doesn't matter that UNH was "honest" (and interesting term) with MV last year saying they were changing their prior promise. The ends do not justify the means.
You seem to goad that MV has no other offers as being proof that UNH was "right." You seem to overlook that MV took offense that UNH was dishonest with him, and decided that he did not want to play for dishonest -- I can respect that he made a principled stand not to play for coaches he can't trust, even if it does mean he still has to spend another year in the USHL. MV had offers from Union, but apparently has chosen to go back another year. I don't think anyone contends he is Gaudreau who everyone would snatch up no matter how late in the year UNH cut him loose. (we see even Jon Gilies had limited options -- I suppose he too was "honest" with NU in breaking his commitment for greener pastures). But he is a talented kid, and far better than 3 of the forwards UNH is bringing in -- the only difference being that he has not "aged out" of the USHL while the others have. I have no doubt if UNH had been "honest" with him starting in September, and if he were not very selective, he would be in college this year. Heck, even Laleggia was too late to get a gig in 2010, and went to 2011.

In the end, this leaves an incredibly sour taste, in which UNH seems to have been dishonest with the kid. And given UNH's dubious or convenient assesment of whether Laleggia, Thrush, Sorkin etc. are ready it seems to show that UNH values age more than talent. I think Sorkin and Thush showed that they are "ready" a year earlier than UNH thought, and Laleggia and Downing showed that they were "more than ready" when deferred an extra year. An interesting view that UNH is more confident in having a junior coach develop the player in his 18-19 year season rather than bringing him to UNH to learn under Umile and the staff.

Edit: We see this ocassionally even with BC. The only difference being that York probably is happy things have worked out for Tiefenwerth rather than crowing that BC was right about him because he only ended up at U.Mass.

edit 2: "the only difference" further being that York has won a couple of championships and even then values getting talent on campus to teach them during a freshman year (see Destry Straight) rather than sending kids out to the USHL until they are 20.

it was stated the offers were scholarship and hockey east, union is neither.

[Wildcat13]

Ok, since returning to Hockey East in the capacity of Hockey East Analyst I tend to look over the fan forum from time to time to get a feel for the issues around the league from a fans perspective. My eyes usually tend to gaze more so at the UNH threads as it is my alma mater and I have deep ties to the program—and I also have a strong interest in the team. For those out there who do not know who I am I played at UNH from 2003-2007, captaining the team as a senior. I now work for NESN as the Hockey East Analyst, along with Chris Warner I put up all the content on ushr.com and finally I am the recruiting coordinator and asst. coach at Milton Academy. I believe that over the course of the last 4 years I have watched more or as much hockey as any DI coach or NHL scout—I am constantly in the rinks. I have seen just about every UNH recruit with the exception of a couple in western Canada. I remain close to the program and speak with the staff on a very regular basis. There have been numerous occasions throughout the year where I have wanted to post, but felt it was not my place and would not be professional. Having said that, I felt that if I were to post, I would not hide behind a handle, Id do it under my name so everyone associated would know exactly who I was and what my thoughts were.

NCAA Watcher—your post really aggravates me and could not be further from the truth. You are accusing the UNH coaching staff of lying to a player and being dishonest in how the Mike Vecchione situation was handled. Dick Umile has never been dishonest with a player and never will be. Having gone through the recruiting process as a player and having seen numerous kids go through the process I can tell you one thing—the only thing that is ever “promised” to a player is what they will receive in terms of scholarship money and the fact that they will start with a stall in the locker room—nothing else is promised—NOTHING. The year a player is to arrive, how much a player will play and what role the player has are all moving variables and never guaranteed. Any player, Mike Vecchione included, is given a timeline in terms of when the staff plans to bring them in. This does not mean it is a done deal by any means. Any recruit has expectations that they must meet if they would like to come in as scheduled. The player in question was told to go to the USHL and when he proved to be a top player in the league he would come into UNH. He had the opportunity to do so this season—and at one point it was thought he would become a top player in only 1 season in the USHL. That was not the case—he was not a top player in the league this season and was then asked to play another year. This is not uncommon.

You state that the recruit in question is better than 3 forwards UNH is bringing in next season. I do not agree with your assessment, but I am not here to argue that… My question is how can you say that? Have you seen all of UNH’s recruits play? Are you qualified to make that decision? Or are you just making that statement by reading stats and comments online? Scott Borek and Jim Tortorella are two of the best talent evaluators in the country with years of experience and ARE in fact qualified. If UNH felt he could help them win more so than someone else, they would have pushed someone else back or they would have brought them all in at once. Fact is they felt what was best for his development was to play a year in the USHL as opposed to being one of 17 forwards at UNH and rarely—if at all—getting into the lineup. I can tell you from experience there is nothing fun or encouraging about sitting in the stands and watching your team play.

You say that Jerry York just brings players in early, even if they are not prepared and would rather develop them in house as opposed to having them play juniors—and you use Destry Straight as the example and essentially compare that situation to that of Mike Vecchione. Here is the difference, Destry Straight played in 43 of the teams 44 games and most of the time played with Chris Kreider and Kevin Hayes. Destry Straight put up 67 points in 59 games in the BCHL as a 17 year old—this is very impressive. His numbers did in fact tail off a bit in his final year of juniors, and he probably could have used another year. Having said that, by the time BC realized this there was not a better player in the country BC could have brought in opposed to Straight. Also, straight was going to play—he was going to get better because he was in the lineup. BC did not have 12 better forwards than him. Was he ready to step in and play top 6 minutes? No, but he was certainly good enough to be in the lineup every night. Mike Vecchione is far different. UNH has 12 forwards who are better for next season, or at least more prepared to be in the lineup. Mike Vecchione would have struggled to play 10 games. Mike Vecchione put up 30 points as an 18 year old in the USHL vs. Straights 67 points as a 17 year old—there is no comparison here. If you are questioning whether or not it is better to have a kid in the USHL playing top 6 minutes, PP, PK, etc or to be in college and be a healthy scratch on a nightly basis than you know nothing of this game.

I have an issue with you referring to the staff as dishonest and lacking integrity when you know nothing of the men they are. I would highly doubt you have ever met Mike Vecchione or know anything about the situation—certainly not enough to call Dick Umile a liar. I know with 100% certainty that his scholarship was never pulled. Dick Umile and the UNH staff have never pulled a players scholarship off the table. UNH felt what was best for Vecchione was to play another year of juniors, the kid did not agree and the two parties parted ways. I do find it interesting that he is playing another year of juniors anyway and now feels its best for his development. Again, I will reiterate—in the recruiting process the only two things that are PROMISED is the amount of scholarship you are to receive and that you will have a stall in the locker room when you arrive. You are given a timeline as to when you are expected to arrive, and to arrive ON TIME you have to meet certain expectations—no promises are made and I know with 100% certainty that no one on the UNH staff ever PROMISED him he would be brought in for the 2012-2013 season.

Cheers.

Phenomenal post. Thank you.

[Hokydad]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

end result, old news. Everyone moved on and water under the bridge. Hope it works out for both parties... I am sure it will

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Josh has provided a rare glimpse into the actual terms and understandings involved in verbal commitments between recruits and Division I hockey programs - at least as it concerns UNH. One key takehome message is that whenever you read that a recruit is projected to enroll in a specific year, you need to take the date with a big grain of salt. At best, the "year" listed for a recruit is a target date subject to the player's development (on the ice and in the classroom) and the team's evolving needs.

[JB]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Josh,

I too appreciate your comments. Thanks for the insight. It is rare we actually here from people with experience.

Two items I would note back:

1) UNH has had a rash of these issues in the last few years. So is it because more players are getting pushed back by not meeting the targets and the kid disagrees? Or is it because the time line is more of a promise in the kids mind. As a manager of a process you have to look at developing patterns and adjust, so I would be asking these questions to see where a disconnect now exists.

2) A great part of reality is percepction. It is unfortunate that the UNH programs recent record is a downward trend. That reality also leads to the perception that the coaches are not as competitant as they once were. Percieved issues in recruiting add to that, right or wrong. At this point for many fans the only remidy is a title or coach change, which is unfortunate. I think the staff needs to find away to manage the image better.

My perception is S. Borek is not that good an evaluator of tallent (but a really nice guy). This perception is from the stats of the players in junors, the product on the ice when they arrive, the lack of the impact players UNH has landed as compared to before he joined the staff, and the number of deferals and commitments lost. Reality I don't know all the facts but I draw conclusions from the information I have.

Thanks again for posting - a rare treat of real information.

[Josh Ciocco]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Josh,

I too appreciate your comments. Thanks for the insight. It is rare we actually here from people with experience.

Two items I would note back:

1) UNH has had a rash of these issues in the last few years. So is it because more players are getting pushed back by not meeting the targets and the kid disagrees? Or is it because the time line is more of a promise in the kids mind. As a manager of a process you have to look at developing patterns and adjust, so I would be asking these questions to see where a disconnect now exists.

2) A great part of reality is percepction. It is unfortunate that the UNH programs recent record is a downward trend. That reality also leads to the perception that the coaches are not as competitant as they once were. Percieved issues in recruiting add to that, right or wrong. At this point for many fans the only remidy is a title or coach change, which is unfortunate. I think the staff needs to find away to manage the image better.

My perception is S. Borek is not that good an evaluator of tallent (but a really nice guy). This perception is from the stats of the players in junors, the product on the ice when they arrive, the lack of the impact players UNH has landed as compared to before he joined the staff, and the number of deferals and commitments lost. Reality I don't know all the facts but I draw conclusions from the information I have.

Thanks again for posting - a rare treat of real information.

I would have ask if you pay attention to only UNH or do you look as closely at every program? The recruiting game has changed so much in the last 6-8 years that comparing "loss of commitments" from one era to the next is simply not fair. You have two options in this day and age, recruit young kids or do not play the game and miss out on the cream of the crop players. All of the top programs who compete for the best 15 and 16 year olds have all had their fair share of misses, players who havent developed as expected, gone major junior, werent accepted into school, etc. Because you commit to these kids so far in advance it is expected that you will not be perfect. If you examine another program as closely you do UNH you will see other programs have their problems too. BU is a program I respect a great deal, I feel Mike Bavis and Buddy Powers are two of the best in the game---but I am using their program as a recent example. Off the top of my head Adam Erne, Anthony DeAngelo and Robert Polesello never made it to campus. Should Mike Bavis be criticized for what just happened with Polesello? No, its all part of the game. Its his job to recruit the best players and when Polesello was 15 and BU needed to make a decision on him it made alot of sense.

I am close with Scott Borek and for that matter the entire UNH program. It is my opinion that he has done an excellent job of keeping UNH stocked with talent. Since his arrival UNH has only missed the NCAA tournament 1 year. To have the talent capable of making the NCAA tournament on an annual basis is very impressive. Here are a couple things I would like to point out. First, UNH needs tangible change. Facilities very much so play a role in the recruiting game. I think the Whit is a great rink and the best place to play college hockey in my opinion. But if you go down to BU and BC there is simply no comparing the facilities. Id really like to see UNH enhance the locker room, build a lounge (which just about every other team has one) and potentially build their own weight room (which alot of other teams have). These things DO make a difference. Since Scott Borek has arrived there have been zero tangible changes made. BU built a palace 1 hour away. Merrimack renovated their entire rink/locker room. Northeastern has built a first class players only weight room and renovated the locker room. Maine has renovated their entire facility. If you think these things do not make his job MUCH more challenging than you are sadly mistaken. I am not going to say its impossible for UNH to out recruit BU and BC, but it is MUCH more challenging now than it was 15 years ago. Facilities do make a big difference. Look no further than Miami of Ohio and how much better that program has gotten. Look no further than BU and how the program was on a serious decline before Agganis. My Freshman year, the final season at Walter Brown Arena, BU finished 8th place. Do you know what UNH's recruiting budget is? I wont go into details, but I will tell you that Providence College has double the budget of UNH---how much more do you think BC and BU have? I believe the state and the school need to recommit themselves to having a top notch program and make tangible changes---Scott Borek is not the fall guy here.

You focus on the negatives, I tend to focus on the positives and I feel Scott Borek has found more overlooked players than any other coach in Hockey East. Bobby Butler was passed over by BC and BU and developed into a Hobey Finalist. Paul Thompson was passed over by BU and BC and developed into a Hobey Finalist. Mike Radja was a first team All-American and the only other school recruiting him was RPI. JVR is the top recruit UNH has ever brought through the doors of the Whit. Tyler Kelleher, Shane Eiserman, Dylan Chanter and Cam Marks are all "A" rated recruits. The future is very bright at UNH and alot of that has to do with outstanding recruiting. Anyone who follows the UNH program knows that in the last 8 years admissions has changed a great deal for the UNH Hockey program and there was a learning curve associated with that change.

I think as fans of the program you should look deeper at the issues at hand instead of looking for someone to blame for UNH having 1 season in recent history that would be deemed "poor"... You state a downward trend in the UNH Hockey program since scott Borek's arrival--I got to UNH during Borek's 2nd year. Off the top of my head I believe I won 92 games during my 4 year career, thats an average of 23 win per season. You feel there has been a drop off in talent level yet we averaged 23 wins per season? There are not many people in college hockey that would be unhappy with averaging 23 wins per season. All in all I think the UNH Coaching staff has done a great job and will eventually win the big one. Support the team. Support the staff. It all helps, trust me.

[Hokydad]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Erne and Deangelo had zero to do with development or talent. Didnt come for every reason but talent

I dont know what recruiting budget means but I have never not seen UNH at a single event and have seen them at more USHL and BCHL games then all 3 of the schools you mentioned.

Also safe to say UNH facilities are like the United Center in Chicago compared to Merrimacks.. Now thats a guy who has built a program on a shoe string.

[Josh Ciocco]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Erne and Deangelo had zero to do with development or talent. Didnt come for every reason but talent

I dont know what recruiting budget means but I have never not seen UNH at a single event and have seen them at more USHL and BCHL games then all 3 of the schools you mentioned.

Also safe to say UNH facilities are like the United Center in Chicago compared to Merrimacks.. Now thats a guy who has built a program on a shoe string.

Adam Erne and Anthony Deangelo were both given full scholorships and both held those scholorships for about 1 years time. They chose to recruit those players and offer them scholorships as opposed to going after other players. It was not until after those players decommitted that they gave that money out to other players. Meaning they missed on other top 95's who committed to other schools during that time. A miss is a miss if you ask me, doesnt matter how/why, and those two players did effect BU in a negative fashion.

Every team in the NCAA has a recruiting budget, though teams like BC have an unlimited budget--which is a huge advantage. It is the amount of money they can spend recruiting. This includes travel to and from events for the coaches, hotels, flights, rental car, etc. It also entails flying recruits in to see the campus, flights, etc. For a player to fly in from British Columbia the flight alone, depending on the notice--which is usually short--is about $1,000. UNH has to be very selective about where they go, which recruits they fly in, etc because their budget is one of the lowest in D1 college hockey. The fact that you still see them everywhere is a feather in their caps.

Mark Dennehy has done an outstanding job at Merrimack. I am not taking anything away from the job that has been done there. I think if Jerry York retired it would be hard to overlook Dennehy for the BC job right now. Albie O'Connel, one of the best talent evaluators there is is you ask me, landed them some high end guys (DaCosta) and the current staff has done a great job not losing momentum. But UNH and Merrimack rarely find themselves competing for recruits. I dont understand why you brought Merrimack up? Merrimack has not beat BU or BC out of any recruits. What Mark Dennehy has done is take less heralded players and turn them into a competitive team who in the last couple of seasons have competed on the national stage. Though it will be interesting to see how much Cannata impacted that situation and if they can withstand his departure. The comment I was responding to was that UNH no longer gets the top end recruits that they used to---Sean Collins, Darren Haydar, Eddie Caron, etc. I was merely saying that other programs have improved their facilities while UNH's is declining--making Scott Borek's job more challenging than that of Brian McCloskey. I also disagree that they no longer get top end recruits as the job they have done with the '95 class in particular has the potential to be better than any age group UNH has ever brought in. I understand that these kids need to make it to campus---but right now that group of kids is very high end and not only is it on par with recruiting classes of the late 90's and early 2000's---its better!

[JB]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Josh,

First a little about me. I grew up in Lee (I should update my profile as I moved 5 years ago) and remember my first UNH games in the late 70's as a kid with my dad. He has had season tickets for as long as I can remember, we are both Alumni (and "Friends"). I graduated with my BS in 97. I have met the coaching staff at different functions but all informally, and wouldn't say I know any of them. When Umile talks to the rotary club yearly I am a guest at the meeting and my father aways introduces me as being present because the Coach is is speaking and it is now a yearly chuckle. The one year I was out of town on business Coach had some funny remark about the absence of the usual guest. I used to follow all of college hockey as close as I could, which in the beginning was hard, I am one of the long time visitors here I go back several "message boards" but rarely post.

I would have ask if you pay attention to only UNH or do you look as closely at every program? The recruiting game has changed so much in the last 6-8 years that comparing "loss of commitments" from one era to the next is simply not fair.

I will admit since I took over a "new" position at work in Aug 2007, work has been crazy (crap it has been 4.5+ years) and has squeezed out keeping track of hockey as closely as I did in the past. I am lucky I read your post in a relavant time frame. I will keep that perspective in mind.

Off the top of my head Adam Erne, Anthony DeAngelo and Robert Polesello never made it to campus. Should Mike Bavis be criticized for what just happened with Polesello? No, its all part of the game. Its his job to recruit the best players and when Polesello was 15 and BU needed to make a decision on him it made alot of sense.

See above totally clueless.

Since his arrival UNH has only missed the NCAA tournament 1 year. To have the talent capable of making the NCAA tournament on an annual basis is very impressive.

I was a fan during the mid 80's (20 wins in 3 years) so I am not one that dismisses the NCAA run.

Id really like to see UNH enhance the locker room, build a lounge (which just about every other team has one) and potentially build their own weight room (which alot of other teams have). These things DO make a difference. Since Scott Borek has arrived there have been zero tangible changes made. BU built a palace 1 hour away. Merrimack renovated their entire rink/locker room. Northeastern has built a first class players only weight room and renovated the locker room. Maine has renovated their entire facility. If you think these things do not make his job MUCH more challenging than you are sadly mistaken.

I would agree this is unfortunate but unless some folks with big dollars show-up it isn't going to change the school doesn't have the money. But I do have a hard time with this excuse. Yes others facilities have improved but UNH still has better facilities than many. I don't see behind the walls but I have a hard time with rating Lawler above the Whitt.

You focus on the negatives,

Well not really. I focus on reality (and it sucks at times) and trends. Look at this string of numbers 28, 20, 26, 20, 26, 25, 20, 18, 22, 15. What is the Macro trend of these numbers? I would say down. It happens to be the UNH wins per year in order the last 10 years. Organizations are generally either growing or dieing. The pevious 10 years the numbers were generally pointing up.

It may be coincidence but I don't see the same talent on the ice.

I tend to focus on the positives and I feel Scott Borek has found more overlooked players than any other coach in Hockey East. Bobby Butler was passed over by BC and BU and developed into a Hobey Finalist. Paul Thompson was passed over by BU and BC and developed into a Hobey Finalist. Mike Radja was a first team All-American and the only other school recruiting him was RPI. JVR is the top recruit UNH has ever brought through the doors of the Whit.

I see the guys that grow in the program and it is something that should be a source of pride for the coaches. However Butler & Thompson were really only impact players 1 year of 4. Radja was 2 of four. Roll back 10 years and you had Krog, Haydar, Mowers, Nolan, etc. Many of those guys either hit the ground hard or were impact players 3 years and they were all in the same time frame. Where is that talent? I love the diamonds in the rough. But you also need to get some that aren't so much work for the return.

Tyler Kelleher, Shane Eiserman, Dylan Chanter and Cam Marks are all "A" rated recruits. The future is very bright at UNH and alot of that has to do with outstanding recruiting.

I would agree there is some fantastic potential, an exciting potential. But it take several years of that kind of talent to get there... Based on current trends will it get on campus. In my book it doesn't count until the talent actually wears the sweater.

Anyone who follows the UNH program knows that in the last 8 years admissions has changed a great deal for the UNH Hockey program and there was a learning curve associated with that change.

This has been sucky. I wish the learning curve hadn't been so slow. I am also surprised there hasn't been some leverage put on admissions. For the first time since I can remember UNH had adds on 9 asking for applicants the past spring. Even a reminder of when replies are do.

You feel there has been a drop off in talent level yet we averaged 23 wins per season? There are not many people in college hockey that would be unhappy with averaging 23 wins per season. All in all I think the UNH Coaching staff has done a great job and will eventually win the big one. Support the team. Support the staff. It all helps, trust me.

I look at the trend not just the average. Averages can hide what is happening. I have been taught when looking at monthly fiancial data to look at 3, 6 and 9 month rolling averages to spot trends.

28, 20, 26, 20, 26, 25, 20, 18, 22, 15.

I see two distinct sets in this 10 year run. First 5 average 24 wins per and a fairly stable program. The deviation in this "set" is crazy (16% from average) but I would guess fairly consistent to high performing college atheltics. I look at the last 5, average 20 wins per but I see a downward trend that scares me. We can slice this data a bunch of ways but it starts at 28 and ends at just about half in 15. Worse is the peaks are getting lower and the lows are getting deeper. If I am an executive I want an action plan to pull that trend up from down.


Thanks for the food for thought.


As an aside I think looking at season long team average stats hides what is going on. Is the team trending up, trending down etc. UNH this last year was terrible at PK in the beginning but trend up all year. So does an 84% PK number in late February really mean anything.

[Josh Ciocco]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

JB,

First, if you ever see me at a game feel free to introduce yourself. I enjoy talking about hockey, hockey east and especially UNH.

When mentioning facilities I know that UNH is not bottom of the barrel and when looking nationally still have one of the better rinks in college hockey.But as fans, you guys dont compare UNH's success with Merrimack. You want them to be better than BC and BU, right? You want them at the top of the league, right? All I am saying is that if you want the best you have to compete with the best. Competing with BU, BC, North Dakota, Michigan, Denver, Miami, Minnesota and Notre Dame means you have to keep your facilities competitive. In the late 90's and early 2000's UNH had better facilities than North Dakota, BU, Miami and Notre Dame---that is no longer the case. This makes it more challening for the coaching staff. That was my point---that Scott Borek's job is far more challenging than the previous assitant in charge of recruiting.

IN regards to talent, UNH still has players who arrive and make an immediate impact. Grayson Downing, JVR, Jacob Micflikier, Dan Winnik, Trevor Smith, TVR, Kevin Regan, Casey Desmith all come to mind. The reason I brought up the likes of Butler, Thompson and Radja is because I think Borek is better than most at finding big time players that other top programs are not on. Do you think if Mike Bavis and Greg Brown could go back in time they would not recruit those 3 players? Sure they would. Though I will say Mike Bavis has done a better job than anyone with finding talented recruited walk ons---Matt Gilroy, John Curry and Garrett Noonan all come to mind.

You seem to have a knack with numbes. Here is a small project for you. Take a look at UNH's wins/losses during the time before they got a new rink and after they got a new rink. Do the same for BU and Miami and Notre Dame if you have time. I am extremely confident that you will see a VERY strong correlation that with new facilties comes more wins, aging facilities means less wins.

I do not feel UNH's problems can not be fixed. They do not need a new rink---just a face lift. I think a lounge and weight room are projects that could be tackled to get UNH back in the mix with the top tier programs. Behind the visitors bench there is room to dig out that area. This will cost money, but I think it is a goal worth trying to reach. Again, I am aware UNH's facilities are better than most---but we want the program at the top--so it isnt fair to say, "The Whit is far better than Lawler." Lets compare what UNH has to work with against the programs we compare them to on the ice. And please---do not bring up Union and Ferris. Great seasons, but they have not even come close to the success UNH has had in past 10 seasons. 1 season does not make your program successful. As fans you guys hold UNH to a high standard---its championships or failure. My point is UNH has remained in the national picture despite lower budgets and worse facilties than the top programs---and I credit that to Dick Umile and his staff---and I am proud of the job they have done and am excited about what they future holds. If you are in the rinks as much as I am and watch the recruits they are bringing in you know there is a very positive buzz surrounding the team and the buidling blocks for a championship team are in place.

[Josh Ciocco]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Also, dismissing the current admissions challenges when comparing UNH now and UNH 15 years ago also is not fair. It makes the job WAY more challenging. Case in point--John Gaudreau. I know you guys are familiar with the situation. John is a very close family friend of mine. His father taught me the game when I was 7 years old. My litte brother is a '93 and played with John for years while growing up this. This season John's father and my dad are coaching a team together---point being is we are family friends and I know exactly what happened.

John decommitted from Northeastern in August and became a free agent. BU, BC, and UVM all made full scholorship offers for the 2012-2013 season. John is arguably the top freshman in the country--why wouldnt they make offers, right? UNH admissions, because it was late in the year and they had said no to other sports would not even review Johnny Gaudreau's application. I promise you this, John had a strong interest in going to UNH. His best freind is Jamie Hill, a UNH recruit. He asked me about my experience at UNH and I had great reviews of the program. JVR is someone John has skated with numerous times and JVR had great things to say. None the less, admissions wouldnt even look at his application. How much different would UNH have been this season if they had him? You think that would have been an issue 15 years ago? No chance. Dont ignore the current challenges and dismiss them as if they do not exist. The school and the state have to get behind the team like they used to be, as UNH hockey brings the state of New Hampshire a great deal of pride.

[Hokydad]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Big four for several years

BC, BU, UNH, ME.

Only NUMBER that really counts. NCAA titles

Last 20 years
BC 4
ME 2
BU 2
UNH 0

Your last paragraph goes on and on about success. I will bet you ten to 1 over the next 5 years Union beats UNH in every catagory, as well as academics. Zero scholarships, great recruiting classes coming in and heading in the right direction. Can't say that about University of No Hardware. Another guy with little budget, zero scholarships, twice the admision process and twice the momentum.

UNH is fine but by no means is heading in the right direction

[JB]

Re: UNH Recruits: 2012-2016

Doing some directional trending sounds interesting. I think the trick it to look for inflection points in running average win percentage - where did things change. Then map back to a potential cause. I would expect building changes to be a year or so delay as the new building could be sold to 1 maybe two classes early. New recruiting assistant would likely be 2-3 year as his guys take over. New head coach is a longer view as systems need to be torn apart a rebuilt in most cases.

The trick is getting the data, a quick check shows hockeydb might be the easiest to pull from into excel. I get head coach in that group but looking at new areana and assistant change will be a bit of digging. Now I just need the time around doing work and projects around the house.

This could take some time but I will post updates to this thread as it is based around recruiting. Anyway to post a excel plot/graph on this forum?




I do think in many cases the Arena came after the direction change UNH, Miami and Notre Dame sprng to mind. North Dakota and BU would seem more an exception - just of the top of my head. My guess is you get bump from the new building but the change is already in the works.