Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

[pirate]

And yet they all claim to be conservatives and they are actual politicians vs you who is sitting at home saying an entire political party who is spending millions/billions of dollars to promote their conservative values is not conservative.

Today's republican party couldn't list themselves by the myriad of loosely connected planks in their platform by any other moniker. Conservative sounds better than most other tags

[Rover]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

On second thought, I guess defining "conservative" just depends on how you define "traditional" or its equivalent: "Conservative: Holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation"
So if you think the good ol' days were before the revolutionary war, today's GOP is conservative. If you're slightly more modern and count liberty as being a "traditional" virtue, today's GOP is not.

Hey I have some sympathy for this dilemna. What I always tell people is that there aren't more than 5 "traditional conservatives" left in GOP politics and the ones that are hanging on like Lugar are in the fight of their lives for no apparent reason. I'm not saying people like yourself should go out and join the ACLU and put Little Ralphie Nader stickers on your car, but voting Dem this time around sends a strong message to the GOP to shape the $%%^ up and stop nominating lunatics.

I read that awhile back a key win for the Reagan coaltion was the hawkish anti-Communist JFK or Truman types who felt outnumbered by the post Vietnam doves who dominated the party. Once Carter's troubled foreign policy took shape, they went GOP and never looked back. Similarly I'd like to see the Dems now reach out to the people who are horrified by the idiocy of today's Republican party which has little to do with conservatism circa 1980 and have them come over as ConservaDems. Really is there that much difference between Collins, Snowe, Nelson, Dorgan, Graham or Johnson in the Senate that they couldn't all exist in the same caucus?

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Today's republican party couldn't list themselves by the myriad of loosely connected planks in their platform by any other moniker. Conservative sounds better than most other tags

It's smart branding. Most people think of themselves as "conserving" something, even when the things are completely different. Most people consider themselves to be protecting core American values. You can go up and down the Bill of Rights and find something each person will fight for, even people who will fight each other. So "conservative" is like saying "healthy" on a fast food wrapper -- everybody interprets it relative to themselves and everybody is attracted. Brilliant marketing.

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

The notion that neo-cons are generally hypocrites is indisputable. Righties didn't turn on Bush until AFTER the GOP lost control of Congess in '06. Had they not done so, it would have been "la da dee dah" about all the spending and increases in govt power for another two years.

I think you're conflating neocons, corporate cons, and fiscal cons.

The neocons are the people like Robert Kagan, VDH and the Poderholtz family who want to beat the world to a pulp, drink its milk shake, and pacify its populations, all while humming a mash up of the Marine Corp Hymn, the Star Spangled Banner and Hatikvah and nattering on about American Exceptionalism and the White Man's burden. They aren't hypocrites, they're psychotics.

The corporate cons voted for Dubya because he was a plutocrat's wet dream. They immediately went into the business of rigging energy policy, environmental policy and the tax code for their cronies. Dubya himself is probably best described as a corporate con because he's too ignorant to know what the Battle of Milvian Bridge was but he marinated for fifty years in the sauce of Texas oil wealth and he puts his class interest first and foremost.

The fiscal cons held their nose and voted for Bush because he was a Republican and that's their best bet. The Pharm giveaway (to the corporate cons) and the Imperial March (for the neocons) disgusted them, and they pulled out of the coalition first. Some of them went Libertarian. Some of them went Tea Party until they realized that was turning into a fascist movement.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I love how the conservatives run from the GOP and then vote for Romney in the primary.

It's hilarious.

Say what you will about liberals but we at least pick the liberal guy and go with it.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

For the record:

The GOP is conservative - ask the greater part of their voters
The 'classical/theoretical' conservative is pretty much gone in the US - people who say they are vote consistently for the GOP...what else is there?
Everyone spends - liberals, conservatives and people who claim that they are 'classical' consevatives...they each have their own pet issues
When spending at least liberals spend on more worthy causes - I'll take investing in US education over tanks that sit in Germany any day
Yet conservatives of all stripes claim they hate spending when running...and then change their emphasis to rolling back social progress once in office
In fact, I think there's probably evidence that conservative leadership has resulted in worse US economies overall
Except for possibly immigration policy, I have yet to hear a plausable case where W was liberal in any way

[Rover]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

However we want to define the various wings of the party, I find it interesting how they come together not just this year but going forward.

Corporate conservatives obviously aren't going anywhere, nor are social conservatives in the long term (although I can see some staying home this election). However, where does the military wing of the party go? If you look at the candidates positions on Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, or the nuclear arms treaty with Russia, they are far, far to the right of the country. Boiled down to its basic form, Romney's positions are to stay in Iraq for an open ended commitment, stay in Afghanistan indefinitely, bomb Iran whenever Israel asks us to and not sign onto any reduction and verification program with Russia even though US Presidents have been doing so for decades. Can anyone make the case that Romney/Santorum would do a better job on international affairs than Obama? If so, in what areas?

[geezer]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Except for possibly immigration policy, I have yet to hear a plausable case where W was liberal in any way

In general fiscal policy, he ran up more of a debt than any of his predecessors. Liberal being the opposite of conserve regarding fiscal policy.

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Say what you will about liberals but we at least pick the liberal guy and go with it.

1972 was a long time ago.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

1972 was a long time ago.

Depends on how radically liberal you want to go.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

In general fiscal policy, he ran up more of a debt than any of his predecessors. Liberal being the opposite of conserve regarding fiscal policy.

Debt under...

Ford: increased
Carter: decreased
Reagan: increased
Bush I: increased
Clinton: decreased
W: increased
Obama: increased (govt revenues were destroyed for much of his admin)

So no GOP president since Nixon was a conservative?

And yes, all conservatives have their spending projects...they just complain more about others' pet projects.

[XYZ]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Debt under...

Deficit, not debt.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Deficit, not debt.

true

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Depends on how radically liberal you want to go.

Bernie Sanders is not walking through that door.

[geezer]

Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

So no GOP president since Nixon was a conservative?

relax. You said, immigrationally was the ONLY way in which GW was liberal. I said, take a look at fiscally where he was also extremely liberal. That's all. That much is not really disputable. I'm not interested in debating how liberal (generally) other GOP presidents have been.