Time for a change at UVM

[brookyone]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

The reality is that most posters on this board are parents of womens college hockey players, past, present and future. As a result most of the naysaying comes from people with "vested" interest in the program. As Slewfoot so eloquenty stated, "fans" with a "vested" interest still connected to a program should work within the confines of the program, to enact change as opposed to running a campaign on this board.

I have to confess, I do find your frequent insistence that opinions and comments of a particular nature should be suppressed in this public forum troublesome. In a public forum you simply can't censor opinions just because those opinions make you uncomfortable, or you don't agree with those opinions...or you don't think it's proper etiquette to discuss the topic herein. What if the source is just a fan who cares about a program with no familial connection? IMO they also have the right to comment...right here if they want. There's a great big variety of people and reasons they might have something to say on this and similar matters. I wouldn't agree only people with vested interest based on a family connection can be involved in commentary regarding a team coaching staff personnel, therefore I would also not agree the approach you and Slewfoot apparently believe is the only method to seek change or simply weigh in is the only option.

I also think an expectation that someone who cares and has an obvious interest would / should either withhold their comments, or speak them freely based on whether the sport does or does not generate revenue is not very realistic.

My Dad did mention something about taking the good with the bad...too darn many times as I grew up. Also used to say one has to accept criticism at times during life. We didn't get along too well in my adolescence.

[SlewFoot]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I have to confess, I do find your frequent insistence that opinions and comments of a particular nature should be suppressed in this public forum troublesome. In a public forum you simply can't censor opinions just because those opinions make you uncomfortable, or you don't agree with those opinions...or you don't think it's proper etiquette to discuss the topic herein. What if the source is just a fan who cares about a program with no familial connection? IMO they also have the right to comment...right here if they want. There's a great big variety of people and reasons they might have something to say on this and similar matters. I wouldn't agree only people with vested interest based on a family connection can be involved in commentary regarding a team coaching staff personnel, therefore I would also not agree the approach you and Slewfoot apparently believe is the only method to seek change or simply weigh in is the only option.

I also think an expectation that someone who cares and has an obvious interest would / should either withhold their comments, or speak them freely based on whether the sport does or does not generate revenue is not very realistic.

My Dad did mention something about taking the good with the bad...too darn many times as I grew up. Also used to say one has to accept criticism at times during life. We didn't get along too well in my adolescence.

Ok I will speak freely. I beginning to see why some people on this board dislike you so much. You seem to just argue for the sake of argument, which is annoying. You have a right to your opinion but as anyone knows free speech isn't absolute. Freedom to express yourself doesn't mean you can yell fire in a theater. No you can't suppress statements because they make you uncomfortable but you can sue for defamation if false statements harm your reputation. False statements that are published in writing are known as libel. The results of libel are known as defamation. Defamation victims who can prove the false statements were made knowingly and with malice or "reckless regard for the truth" can receive compensation greater than the damages. Malice is a willful or intentional state of mine, in which the actor intends to bring about an injury or wrongdoing. The reason we have these laws is to protect reputation and ability to work from lies.

I'm not saying that what has been said on this board is libel but the point I'm making is that despite what you may believe Brooky, you cannot just write anything. If you write something about someone as fact you better be able to defend it as the truth.

Regardless of the above I will express my opinion and say that at the very least what Olive.Juice is doing is in bad taste and is too often the case of a disgruntled parent or player who is just trying to stir things up. I don't know what is true or not but if the criticism is based on "sour olives" its not fair to the UVM women's program to be dragged through the mud to further someone's self-interested motives. Let the UVM women's hockey team and its AD handle this if it is a problem. Its their team. Olive.Juice has stated that he or she wants what's best for UVM. If that is true then in my opinion it is better handled by the women, the coaches and the AD. I don't think anything good can come out of publishing this on a forum.

I'm done.

[brookyone]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Ok I will speak freely. I beginning to see why some people on this board dislike you so much. You seem to just argue for the sake of argument, which is annoying.

I am sorry you find me and or my posts so annoying. I can tell you I post comments and opinions because I genuinely believe what I post and that's why I post them, rather than for the mere sake of argument, or only to argue in an absence of any sincere conviction. That's the truth. You may not believe that.

I'm talking strictly about opinions. Not lies presented as fact. I'd agree that's unacceptable and definitely not something that should be written here. I'm also aware of the sour grapes content in several threads. It's not uncommon by any means, but some seem to believe every opinion that isn't 100% positive is a product of sour grapes. I don't think that's true.

This is not intended to annoy, agitate or portend further argument, but the question about what my dad did or did not say to me smacks of derision IMO. Probably not your intention. My honest reaction, speaking freely.

[go.cats.go]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

The curious thing about this thread is that the people who seem to be closest to the team, whether they are fans, parents, former, or current players tend to be expressing the strongest opinions that there should be a change. There are many aspects to running a Varsity program - game performance, game day coaching and public relations which are visible to the public. Others, like running practice, recruiting, relating to the players, organizing and hiring assistant coaches, and being a mentor and leader to the young adults are all important parts of being a head coach. You can have lots of losing seasons, but if you are a good mentor and help these players grow as players or as people, you might still be doing a good job for the program and it would not be apparent to the fans, but it would be to the kids on the tam, the parents and the school.

If that were the case, we would see lots of posts from current players, former players, parents, parents of former players and others close to the team standing up, identifying themselves as such and touting these wonderful traits of the head coach if they felt this way. The lack of posts defending Bothwell from the group that knows the team the best speaks volumes.

Think about how beloved Joe Paterno was to Penn State and how many folks outwardly showed support for him I spite of the horrific scandal that occurred on his watch. A different situation here for sure, but where among his former players are all Bothwell's supporters and if there are any, why are they so silent?

[Beentheredonethat]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

If that is true then in my opinion it is better handled by the women, the coaches and the AD. (Slewfoot)

I have tried to refrain from any more post because I feel I have stated my point with conviction but certain post bring me back. Again, why is it so hard for you (slewfoot) to believe this has not already been attempted to be handled by the AD, coaches and us, the players. This will be the last time I say this, but the coach and AD are very good friends. Their days go all the way back to Calgary. It's no secret.

And go-cats-go could not have made any better point. This thread is well known by current and past. Where are all the post supporting this coach. I think the lack of support says it all. I'd be surprised to see any post of support unless they were manufactured.

[YankeeZulu]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

A few years ago, my daughter was offered a scholarship by UVM -- her only D-I offer. I wasn't thrilled about the prospect of her playing (or sitting on the bench) at UVM, but I really tried to not influence her choice. She ultimately chose a D-III NESCAC school (with a better financial aid package). She thrived there. That's my only real "interest" in UVM except that I followed the careers of several of the Connecticut prep players that went on up to UVM.

This year there are two seniors and three juniors playing at UVM. Two years ago, on the 2009-10 roster, there were five other players who if they stayed playing at UVM would have joined this year's ranks of juniors and seniors. I followed two of those young ladies through their Connecticut prep career. Both have since transferred from UVM, one to UConn and one to Cornell. If they posted stats at UVM this year similar to what they posted at Cornell and UConn this year, they would have been UVM's #1 and #2 scorers.

Player retention is only more measurement of a program. Kids leave every program for one reason or another, but a 50% "drop-out" rate from two classes from two years ago sounds too high to me, especially when you are talking about some quality players.

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

The curious thing about this thread is that the people who seem to be closest to the team, whether they are fans, parents, former, or current players tend to be expressing the strongest opinions that there should be a change. There are many aspects to running a Varsity program - game performance, game day coaching and public relations which are visible to the public. Others, like running practice, recruiting, relating to the players, organizing and hiring assistant coaches, and being a mentor and leader to the young adults are all important parts of being a head coach. You can have lots of losing seasons, but if you are a good mentor and help these players grow as players or as people, you might still be doing a good job for the program and it would not be apparent to the fans, but it would be to the kids on the tam, the parents and the school.

If that were the case, we would see lots of posts from current players, former players, parents, parents of former players and others close to the team standing up, identifying themselves as such and touting these wonderful traits of the head coach if they felt this way. The lack of posts defending Bothwell from the group that knows the team the best speaks volumes.

Think about how beloved Joe Paterno was to Penn State and how many folks outwardly showed support for him I spite of the horrific scandal that occurred on his watch. A different situation here for sure, but where among his former players are all Bothwell's supporters and if there are any, why are they so silent?

It is my believe that those that enjoyed a program tend to stay quiet in these type of debates. Just look back at last years Brown thread, and see how much hate posts posters like Notfromaroundhere got for trying to defend Digit.

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

The reality is that most posters on this board are parents of womens college hockey players, past, present and future. As a result most of the naysaying comes from people with "vested" interest in the program. As Slewfoot so eloquenty stated, "fans" with a "vested" interest still connected to a program should work within the confines of the program, to enact change as opposed to running a campaign on this board.

I have to confess, I do find your frequent insistence that opinions and comments of a particular nature should be suppressed in this public forum troublesome. In a public forum you simply can't censor opinions just because those opinions make you uncomfortable, or you don't agree with those opinions...or you don't think it's proper etiquette to discuss the topic herein. What if the source is just a fan who cares about a program with no familial connection? IMO they also have the right to comment...right here if they want.

There's a great big variety of people and reasons they might have something to say on this and similar matters. I wouldn't agree only people with vested interest based on a family connection can be involved in commentary regarding a team coaching staff personnel, therefore I would also not agree the approach you and Slewfoot apparently believe is the only method to seek change or simply weigh in is the only option.

Brooky you are trying to put words in my mouth I never uttered. My post was to opine, as I have done in the past, that "insiders" or those connected to the program either recently or currently, should not be using these boards to "run a coach out of town". I have no problem with general fans, such as TTT and yourself making comments, both good or bad. However, if it is a parent, player or recently let go player slagging a coach, it more often than not smacks of sour grapes. Using these boards to run a smear campaign is in my opinion out of line. You can agree to disagree, but I'll never waver from that opinion. I have no connection whatsoever with UVM, and feel just as strongly about it as I did last year about the Brown saga. As Slewfoot indicated, having a smear campaign on this board will hurt recruiting.

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

The curious thing about this thread is that the people who seem to be closest to the team, whether they are fans, parents, former, or current players tend to be expressing the strongest opinions that there should be a change. There are many aspects to running a Varsity program - game performance, game day coaching and public relations which are visible to the public. Others, like running practice, recruiting, relating to the players, organizing and hiring assistant coaches, and being a mentor and leader to the young adults are all important parts of being a head coach. You can have lots of losing seasons, but if you are a good mentor and help these players grow as players or as people, you might still be doing a good job for the program and it would not be apparent to the fans, but it would be to the kids on the tam, the parents and the school.

You bring up a point that many seem to forget, and it is the "experience" of the player, rather than the record in the books.

Case in point is our oldest Daughter. One year she was on a winning team (Midget age) that went 18-2 down the stretch, and the coach played every game as a must win. My daughter hated it as she was stapled to the Bench for most of the second and third period. What was worse is that the coach told her she was no good for nothin. She almost quit the game. Two years later she played on a losing team (U19) that only won 4 or 5 games all year. To this day she consideres that as her most fun season, as the coach treated her with respect, and there was a lot of camaraderie in the room. She went on to play three years of Varsity hockey, and is now in Med School.

As adults we should realize that not every player on a team can be on the first or second line. Players learn, or have to learn, to deal with that in College. Some players handle it better than others. Some parents handle it better than others. I've always advised our daughters to talk to the coach, when they come complaining to me about something. They are young adults, and the sooner they learn how to act like one, the better they will be for it in the long run.

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

If anyone out there is considering UVM with the current coaching arrangement, check out these numbers:

Hockey East----------Overall----------Goals for--against---------- year

3-16-2----------4-22-6---------- 53-120 ----------2011-2012
4-13-4----------7-17-9 ----------44-77 -----------2010-2011
5-15-1----------10-22-1----------52-90------------2009-2010
4-15-2----------7-25-2-----------57-134-----------2008-2009
4-16-1----------8-25-1-----------59-104-----------2007-2008
1-19-1----------3-27-2-----------31-146-----------2006-2007

This program is not "building." It is an embarrassment to HE and UVM.

Change the coach ah-la Maine, Northeastern, and BU and you might get same results that they have enjoyed lately.

Mr. Bothwell, we know you read this forum. Do the right thing for the program and move on. These girls and the UVM community deserve better.

Added to the above quote more FACTS to include further evidence of the abyss that UVM is currently in. Coach Bothwell's record for his full tenure at UVM is posted above. I also checked RPI, KRACH, and win percentage rankings but they would just make you sicker, so elected not to post them yet.

First, welcome back to the posters whom I thought were gone for good. Just can't stay away! Second, lets be clear here, this thread has only one purpose and that is to lobby for a change at UVM. Based on Statistical FACTS there needs to be a coaching change and spare us the philosophical discussions about "experiences." Please. The statistic that you cannot compare is the amount of money that is spent on this program with very little to show for it. Do some quick calcs. on the budget for this program. Start with the coach making well over 100K, the 18 scholarships, and support services and the budget is well over 1 million dollars each year. This clearly does not compare to any midget/varsity/U-19 program that has had 1 or 2 statistically down years (as opposed to 6?). When spending this kind of money the community should demand "experiences" that also include some success in winning games, no? Trust me, the girls on this team are close, like each other, and live, sleep, breath hockey,academics, and life with each other. They are having tremendous experiences minus the one item that is absolutely necessary. Success better than the numbers posted above! They deserve better as does the community who financially supports them.

go.cats.go and YankeeZulu could not be more on point. Go back and read these posts. Quite eyeopening yes?

Much has been tried over the past 4 years or so to bring awareness to the problems noted in this thread yet here we are, year 6 and moving backwards. This thread IS about exposing the current coaching situation and warning any potential recruits to stay far far away if it does not change. Some say this thread is hurting the program with recruits, I say (with others clearly agreeing) that the current coach of this program is hurting it far more than losing potential recruits. With the self proclaimed "best recruiting class ever" that includes the past 2 classes, the program clearly has no problem bringing in quality players with talent. However, the number of talented players is piling up with not much to show for it. Some of the smarter ones previously moved on and we should expect more of the same going forward.

The Facts are in the numbers and stated above. My opinion is that they still suck.

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

If anyone out there is considering UVM with the current coaching arrangement, check out these numbers:

Hockey East----------Overall----------Goals for--against---------- year

3-16-2----------4-22-6---------- 53-120 ----------2011-2012
4-13-4----------7-17-9 ----------44-77 -----------2010-2011
5-15-1----------10-22-1----------52-90------------2009-2010
4-15-2----------7-25-2-----------57-134-----------2008-2009
4-16-1----------8-25-1-----------59-104-----------2007-2008
1-19-1----------3-27-2-----------31-146-----------2006-2007

This program is not "building." It is an embarrassment to HE and UVM.

Change the coach ah-la Maine, Northeastern, and BU and you might get same results that they have enjoyed lately.

Mr. Bothwell, we know you read this forum. Do the right thing for the program and move on. These girls and the UVM community deserve better.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________________

Word is filtering out of Burlington that a meeting took place late last week where the AD provided the players with a "list" of items that the team needs to work on if they are to be successful. Good place to start: remove the coach! Apparently, the coach generated this list but was not available to present it to them. Really? Considering how "successful" this team has been (see above) you would think the COACH might take an interest in addressing these items directly with the players and in person. BTW Spring Break this week and no one is on campus. What great timing Mr. AD and Mr. Coach! My sense is that the players are not happy about this meeting. Fact, they are not happy. Would you be? Can you blame them? The AD is now doing his dirty work by presenting to them what the coach says are the reasons for their lack of "success?" Please. Apparently the list was full of items such as "try harder" and "act like a team", "be a good teammate" Err, I remember getting a similar list back in Mites or U-8. Makes for good team chemistry, no? Thanks for the support coach!

Mr. AD, we know that you too are viewing this board/thread, so just stop patronizing this program. We understand the cushy relationship you have with coach but it is possible to be a good friend AND do the right thing. Buy out his contract so he can move on, and then this program can begin to climb out of the abyss of a hole that it is clearly in! It is further clear now that you just might be the bigger problem here. Do it soon to spare the program anymore embarrassment and before certain girls leave (again.)

Stay tuned people. These stats aren't likely to get better!

[96IllinoisDad]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Question, for those of you who want to get rid of the coach because of the team's record, would you support cancelling all athletic aid for all the players. I mean if you are going to rebuild you might as well let the new coach start fresh. The coach didn't play in these games - the team did.

Of course, the new coach would be free to recruit some of the current players and adjust scholarship money as he or she saw fit.

[go.cats.go]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

The team really has great chemistry. Word is that a lot of the younger players are waiting to see what happens. If Both well stays look for players to flee.

[pakidnyc]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

The thing I have never understood about any situation where a coach remains in place after multiple years of losing seasons is this: It's one thing to say it's the players who played, not the coach. The coach can put in place the most excellent game plan, and the players are the ones who execute (or not). But, at the end of the day, isn't it the job of the coach to find a way to motivate those players to WANT to play either FOR him, against him, whatever the case may be, but play to win? And doesn't some of that include mentoring, disciplining, benching, etc. etc. for undesired actions on or off the ice? Each coach has their own style of doing this, getting the most out of the players -- I mean really, isn't that what the "art" of coaching is all about? But, if someone after 4-5 years gets the same outcome, maybe they just aren't cut out for coaching. Or maybe they aren't cut out for coaching girls, or the girls they have in their system. I know in professional sports you wouldn't say, "WEll, we have all these superstars and it's their fault we're losing." NOpe we blame the coach for not getting them to perform to their potential. People really need to be held accountable at all levels, and it just bothers me when administrations don't show they care more about their programs, especially women's programs (because I am not sure same results would be acceptable on men's side).

[Hux]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

The thing I have never understood about any situation where a coach remains in place after multiple years of losing seasons is this: It's one thing to say it's the players who played, not the coach. The coach can put in place the most excellent game plan, and the players are the ones who execute (or not). But, at the end of the day, isn't it the job of the coach to find a way to motivate those players to WANT to play either FOR him, against him, whatever the case may be, but play to win? And doesn't some of that include mentoring, disciplining, benching, etc. etc. for undesired actions on or off the ice? Each coach has their own style of doing this, getting the most out of the players -- I mean really, isn't that what the "art" of coaching is all about? But, if someone after 4-5 years gets the same outcome, maybe they just aren't cut out for coaching. Or maybe they aren't cut out for coaching girls, or the girls they have in their system. I know in professional sports you wouldn't say, "WEll, we have all these superstars and it's their fault we're losing." NOpe we blame the coach for not getting them to perform to their potential. People really need to be held accountable at all levels, and it just bothers me when administrations don't show they care more about their programs, especially women's programs (because I am not sure same results would be acceptable on men's side).

Well, in pro sports the coach gets the axe when the players don't perform for a number of reasons, and because eating one contract is easy to absorb. In college sports, outside of the big revenue sports, that isn't the case. If a coach has a five year deal and you give him/her the boot after three seasons, you are going to have to eat two years worth of contract.

Given the tight budgets of the majority of institutions it isn't worth it to be on the hook for a that kind of coin because 1) parents are ****ing and moaning that their kids aren't getting playing time, 2) the results haven't been all that good. So, what you are left with is a coaching situation that stays in place until the contract runs out and the administration or coach decide not to renew.