Time for a change at UVM

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Dartmouth 5---UVM 2

New Year---same results---some things just can't change.

This is about results and for 6 years now this is the reality. How long do you go before a change is made? 6 years?

Lets stay on point people. These results suck.

[Beentheredonethat]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Have you not looked at my sign in name. Why is it so hard for people to believe what really is going on. Why is it ok for College coaches to do and act anyway they want but as soon as someone calls them out on it, they're the evil ones. Get real people. This is not a witch hunt just the truth. My information is very factual and accurate. Sorry for all you posters who can't handle the truth. This team now has 12 games remaining and all but one is Hockey East. In order to get to double digit wins they need to go 7-5 the rest of the way. If you all claim this is one of the most talented Freshman class, then who should we look at for this lack of success. I would say the coach needs to take some accountability. Again this Forum is titled "Time for a change at UVM" If you don't want to discuss this, there are other sites.

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Hmmmm, SLU 6--UVM 1 Sad. I know SLU is hot but UVM is clearly Not. This is not the inspiring effort you would like going into the meat of HE. Looks like the girls just don't want to play for this man. It now looks like the team begins its annual (6 years now) swoon to the basement. Sad. Don't you think the coach sees a pattern here and feel some responsibility? We'll see.

[EastFan1]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

If the coach is bad, work the AD, but don't hurt the current kids on the team by putting out the laundry for potential recruits.

The current team is at least competitive. 9 games won or tied against 7 different teams. 12 losses against 10 different teams.

More then a new coach, UVM needs goal scoring, just like 20 or so other programs. Not sure if UVM ever had a 10 goal kid, maybe that changes this year.

[ARM]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

More then a new coach, UVM needs goal scoring, just like 20 or so other programs.

Agreed. Coming into the season, returning players at Vermont had a total of 106 points in their college careers. A number of teams return more career points from a single player.

[SlewFoot]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

If the coach is bad, work the AD, but don't hurt the current kids on the team by putting out the laundry for potential recruits.

The current team is at least competitive. 9 games won or tied against 7 different teams. 12 losses against 10 different teams.

More then a new coach, UVM needs goal scoring, just like 20 or so other programs. Not sure if UVM ever had a 10 goal kid, maybe that changes this year.

I totally agree. Go to the AD or at least tell everyone who you are and what is your beef. It is only fair that an accused know his accuser. This is a very young team that will hopefully stay together and get better. From what I hear the women on this team really get along well which is pretty incredible considering the struggles they've had this year. The team is mostly Freshman and Sophs so they need to mature and get better. Also, the SLU game was not a good game to judge in my opinion since the team had significant numbers missing due to injuries, illness, etc. They started with less than 3 full lines of D and F and had more injuries during the game. By the third period they were only playing with 4 D and 7 F. Tough to succeed against anyone with such a young team with limited numbers, and even tougher against a hot SLU team. They are struggling so it will be tough to turn it around but hopefully they will grow from the experience to make for a better future.

[DC78-82]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I totally agree. Go to the AD or at least tell everyone who you are and what is your beef. It is only fair that an accused know his accuser. This is a very young team that will hopefully stay together and get better. From what I hear the women on this team really get along well which is pretty incredible considering the struggles they've had this year. The team is mostly Freshman and Sophs so they need to mature and get better. Also, the SLU game was not a good game to judge in my opinion since the team had significant numbers missing due to injuries, illness, etc. They started with less than 3 full lines of D and F and had more injuries during the game. By the third period they were only playing with 4 D and 7 F. Tough to succeed against anyone with such a young team with limited numbers, and even tougher against a hot SLU team. They are struggling so it will be tough to turn it around but hopefully they will grow from the experience to make for a better future.

Thank you all for reinforcing the points I have been making on deaf ears. Building a team doesn't happen overnight, and when people that don't have a stall in the locker room are vociferous in their judgement it compounds the problem in both it's current and future state. If you're not at practice and don't have a sweater with your number on the back at game time, watch with your mouth shut or don't watch at all.

[Beentheredonethat]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Thank you all for reinforcing the points I have been making on deaf ears. Building a team doesn't happen overnight, and when people that don't have a stall in the locker room are vociferous in their judgement it compounds the problem in both it's current and future state. If you're not at practice and don't have a sweater with your number on the back at game time, watch with your mouth shut or don't watch at all.

What length of time would you consider to be appropriate to build a team or see some sort of improvement? It's been 6 years now. Again as I have said the coach has had 5 years of recruiting under his belt. You should see some improvement by now. I would love to have this kind of job security. So what do you feel is a reasonable amount of time? 7, 8, 9 years? Sign me up for this job. As far as the AD goes, he has been approached about the situation but refuses to see any problems here. Again it is a known fact that the AD and coach Bothwell are very good friends and spend a fair amount of time together socially. There is certainly a conflict of interest here and don't tell me it's any different because you are not informed. Again, why is it so hard for you on the outside to think everything is A ok here at UVM women's hockey?

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Well. 6 years to build a program? Have you seen what Northeastern, BU, and Maine have done to build programs in less that 6 years? Common factor. New coaches after 3 years of no improvement. If you feel 6 years is not enough, do you not need to see some improvement each year? Not so much at UVM if you look at the numbers. This program is going backwards and the numbers prove it. Look, this is the Hockey East. If UVM wants to continue to act like a lower tier division 1 program or more realistically a division 3 program as they have been doing then just do it and stop making excuses. A solid division 3 program (at significantly less cost) is nothing to be ashamed about. Pretending to be a mediocre division 1 program has become shameful. However, the roster is full of division 1 talent.

Just opinions. But facts don't lie. EastFan1, is not 12 losses to 10 different teams more of an example of the direction of this team? It is as if the facts are not good enough for people to see the light, now we have to twist the numbers to get off point. Really?

The team has 3 wins and is on track to maybe win 2 more if past practice (6 years worth) is any indication of how they perform. No fault of the girls who clearly work and play hard. Lets be honest here (again), this coach is not "building" this team. I won't even begin to address the AD suggestions as it has been stated within this thread that that option has beentheredonethat! several times over.

[DC78-82]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

What length of time would you consider to be appropriate to build a team or see some sort of improvement? It's been 6 years now. Again as I have said the coach has had 5 years of recruiting under his belt. You should see some improvement by now. I would love to have this kind of job security. So what do you feel is a reasonable amount of time? 7, 8, 9 years? Sign me up for this job. As far as the AD goes, he has been approached about the situation but refuses to see any problems here. Again it is a known fact that the AD and coach Bothwell are very good friends and spend a fair amount of time together socially. There is certainly a conflict of interest here and don't tell me it's any different because you are not informed. Again, why is it so hard for you on the outside to think everything is A ok here at UVM women's hockey?

There has been an incredible amount of improvement in the last 5 years.They have developed from a team that was an automatic win, and usually by a huge margin, to a team that is capable of, and has, taken down nationally ranked teams, and teams at the opposite end of the Hockey east rankings.

I checked collegehockeystats.net and just looked at a few numbers.

-----------------------GF---------GA--------W---L---T
2011 - 2012-----------40----------76--------3---12---6 (11 games remaining)
2010 - 2011-----------44----------77--------7---17---2
2009 - 2010-----------52----------90--------10--22--11
2008 - 2009-----------57---------124--------7---25---2
2007 - 2008-----------59---------104--------8---25---1
2006 - 2007-----------21---------145--------2---27---2
2005 - 2006-----------21---------112--------2---29---2

These stats tell me that the team has improved quite a bit. They're not winning a ton yet, but they're considerably more "in the game" than years ago. You can't fill a bucket with a hole in the bottom, and from the looks of the GA / GF, there has been some significant work done to fix the hole in the bucket.

This year, at least 10 of their 12 losses have come at the hands of teams who either are, or have been, in the Top 10 Nationally this year, and if you look at past years, not only was Hockey East still finding it's legs, most of UVM's OOC games were against teams such as Union, who at the time were also struggling to put 2 games a year in the W column.

Every team in Hockey East has improved in the past 5 years, so it's hard to just look at wins and losses and make a fair assessment of a team's progress. Have BC and BU improved more in the short time they've been committed D1 programs? I'd say so. But there are other variables. Look at location. As a UNH grad, I find UVM and the surrounding area to be very desirable, but there are a lot of kids who really want what living in the greater Boston area offers, whether it be cultural, ample public transportation, or proximity to other HE schools and a much less grueling travel schedule. Some just want the instant hope of winning a National Championship, so they choose a team that is knocking at the door, but as has been the case in the past with UNH, and seemingly this year at BU, and to an extent BC over the past four years, what you see on paper might look like the recipe for #1, but it doesn't always mix up that way.

Why are the Boston schools landing a lot of the top notch talent that might be the key to bringing UVM (or Maine, or UNH for that matter) to the top of Hockey East and beyond? Probably a combination of things, including the fact that a lot of the current players on those rosters played at the USA U-18 level for their current coaches. Some of the Canadian players want to play with their National team teammates. You have slammed your "full scholarship freshman" on numerous occasions, but that player could have just as easily gone to BC, BU or pretty much any where else she wanted to. She chose Vermont with eyes wide open, and in doing so, was a big influence in the decision of another high quality freshman to chose Vermont. There was no illusion of a National, or even conference championship looming on the near horizon - they picked that school specifically to help elevate the program, and in one instance, because of what the UVM head coach brought as a coach that the U-18's didn't - honest criticism and the chance to improve, and facing adversity is part of the process.

In this day of instant news and gossip transmission, negative words (which are largely just an outside person's biotching about their personal woes) are remembered a lot longer, and get spread a lot farther than a win loss record that on the surface, seems to be at a standstill. That is a disservice to the program and all those who are committed to it.

If you're not on the team, the best way to help this team improve and grow is to leave it to the players. They are adults, and if they have a concern, it's their responsibility to raise it. These young adults are very impressionable, and may take a specific "story" and generalize to apply that situation to the whole school. I can't count how many times I've heard someone in a rink comment to me, "Oh, such and such a school must be horrible because so and so is a great player and a great person and they're not coming back" 9.9 time out of ten, so and so either couldn't come back because they didn't take the student part of student-athlete seriously, or because they were homesick, found a new major, or wanted to play at a level they simply weren't at, but all people remember is the part about such and such program sucks. Why? Well, because someone told me so. The ultimate unrecruiter.

[HockeyTeacher]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Nice job DC78-82!!!

Nice research and very well put!!

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

There has been an incredible amount of improvement in the last 5 years.

I don't think I agree with this statement DC. Maybe some small improvements in some areas but certainly not "incredible" improvement. Anyone, including myself, can and will take statistics and make them say what they want to say to make a point. I am the first to admit this in this thread. But please, those are still some pretty sick numbers you posted. While I do not have the time to invest as some of the longtime posters and guardians of this forum do, my posts are my opinions and the stats I discuss as a whole are disgusting and support my opinion that this program is at best standing still.

That being said, yes the girls on the team are by and large adults (although some may not act that way at times) but I know for a fact that many former players over the last 6 years have attempted to "raise" these concerns however, it has fallen on very deaf ears specifically with the AD. Most of these girls were recruited and told verbally (as they still are today) to come to UVM to help "build" the program. How many more recruits will buy into this crap? The numbers that matter (and winning does matter to many) do not support a committed effort to "build" a program.

If this is what UVM chooses to do and recruit to "build" a program in the same manner and WITH THE SAME COACH, then there will be many more mediocre years of hockey at this school and that is not fair to all people who may be in the program in the future (take note current recruits) and current and former players, fans, and parents.

Lets stop with all the smokescreens...UVM needs to take heed and get rid of the coach for the sake of the program. Period. Then and only then, will they be able to truly "build" a program; and then the numbers will be noticeable and significant!

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

There has been an incredible amount of improvement in the last 5 years.

I don't think I agree with this statement DC. Maybe some small improvements in some areas but certainly not "incredible" improvement. Anyone, including myself, can and will take statistics and make them say what they want to say to make a point. I am the first to admit this in this thread. But please, those are still some pretty sick numbers you posted. While I do not have the time to invest as some of the longtime posters and guardians of this forum do, my posts are my opinions and the stats I discuss as a whole are disgusting and support my opinion that this program is at best standing still.

That being said, yes the girls on the team are by and large adults (although some may not act that way at times) but I know for a fact that many former players over the last 6 years have attempted to "raise" these concerns however, it has fallen on very deaf ears specifically with the AD. Most of these girls were recruited and told verbally (as they still are today) to come to UVM to help "build" the program. How many more recruits will buy into this crap? The numbers that matter (and winning does matter to many) do not support a committed effort to "build" a program.

If this is what UVM chooses to do and recruit to "build" a program in the same manner and WITH THE SAME COACH, then there will be many more mediocre years of hockey at this school and that is not fair to all people who may be in the program in the future (take note current recruits) and current and former players, fans, and parents.

Lets stop with all the smokescreens...UVM needs to take heed and get rid of the coach for the sake of the program. Period. Then and only then, will they be able to truly "build" a program; and then the numbers will be noticeable and significant!

BC 3, UVM 0

More of the same and no end in site.

Spare me the shorthanded excuses. Coaches gotta adapt to the adversity and get the team ready to play.

[DC78-82]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

BC 3, UVM 0

More of the same and no end in site.

Spare me the shorthanded excuses. Coaches gotta adapt to the adversity and get the team ready to play.

Clearly if VT only stays within 3 goals of the # 4 team in the nation, and one of last year's Frozen Four participants, as well as the Hockey East reigning champ, and current HE 1st place team, the whole program should be scrapped. You are going to find the bad and negative regardless of what the rest of us see, so I withdraw from the conversation, and wish nothing but the best for UVM.

As one of our longtime posters says "Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference."

[Cali]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

"Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference."

I like that one.