Time for a change at UVM

[ARM]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

There are infinite cases of players whose negative experiences in college hockey stemmed from the coach, but I suspect very few whose negative experiences actually stemmed from their teammates.

I'd be surprised if it is that disparate. A player has three coaches, 20 teammates, and human nature being what it is, those 20 aren't going to get along great all of the time. Plus they often live together, and roommates frequently wind up ostracizing one of their number. If that's not the true, then hockey teams are a much kinder, gentler model than our society as a whole. As with bullying, it is easier to be open and tell someone, "My coach is a jerk," than to admit to others and oneself, "None of my roommates like me." Still, I hope that you're right in the case of women's hockey. I'm positive that would not apply in sports like football and men's basketball.

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I certainly would not disagree with your comments as a whole.

While it is true that a particular assessment may not always be completely fair and accurate, (or perhaps accurate, but not more broadly experienced) one would certainly expect there to also be many more positive rebuttals in response if it is atypical. In any case, a pattern of negative assessments are certainly a red flag to ask a whole lot of questions of those currently, and previously, involved in a particular program.

As far as contacting players on a team, of course that is always recommended. However, you must likewise take what current players say with a grain of salt, as is often evidenced by comments they make for media consumption. Since anything they may say to a recruit has a tendency to get back to the coach one way or another, they tend to be understandably guarded about telling the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. It is important to be very specific in your questions, and pay close attention not only to what they say, but how they say it, and most importantly what they don't say. In addition, it is important to talk not just to a team's star players, but to those of the rank and file, for their experiences with a coach are often markedly different. You are most likely to get a more honest perspective from former players if you can do so.

Certainly your teammates are typically the best part of your experience, but it must be remembered that other than the freshmen, most of those on the team you meet in the recruiting process will not be there for most of your time on the team. With every recruiting cycle, about 1/4 of the team turns over--the changes in personalities and senior leadership within the team often has a dramatic effect on chemistry from year to year, an effect which is difficult to predict. Regardless of the best efforts of one's teammates to bond as a group, a coach's behaviours, priorities, and reward systems will have a significant effect on either building on or sabotaging whatever natural chemistry may exist. There are infinite cases of players whose negative experiences in college hockey stemmed from the coach, but I suspect very few whose negative experiences actually stemmed from their teammates.

Ahhh, a microcosm of real Life in the Corporate world. Changes happen all the time. In a larger corporation, it is not uncommon, to have a new boss within a year from your hiring date. So my message to players is. Better get used to it and learn how to operate in a changing evironment, to work and play with 25 or more people, of whom you may only like half, and hate a few. This is the very reason why playing a varsity sport is such a good training ground to learn how to operate in a team formation. Do you want to hire someone who bails at the first hint of conflict or trouble. ?

[OnMAA]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Sure the coach is important, but your teammates play an even bigger part in how you will remember those four years.

Amen.

[Trillium]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I'd be surprised if it is that disparate. A player has three coaches, 20 teammates, and human nature being what it is, those 20 aren't going to get along great all of the time. Plus they often live together, and roommates frequently wind up ostracizing one of their number. If that's not the true, then hockey teams are a much kinder, gentler model than our society as a whole. As with bullying, it is easier to be open and tell someone, "My coach is a jerk," than to admit to others and oneself, "None of my roommates like me." Still, I hope that you're right in the case of women's hockey. I'm positive that would not apply in sports like football and men's basketball.

Human nature being what it is, obviously there is no way you are going to be great friends with all 20+ teammates, some you love...some not so much, and conflicts will inevitably occur. However, you certainly don't need to be roommates with those you don't get along well with. I would think that in most cases, the great friendships with some teammates would generally compensate for any strained relationships you might have with others. In any case, those teammates causing problems typically have little authority over you.

It's possible to limit contact and the impact on you of teammates you don't care for (or don't care for you) to some extent. I don't know how you could possibly do the same with coaches.

[pucko]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Human nature being what it is, obviously there is no way you are going to be great friends with all 20+ teammates, some you love...some not so much, and conflicts will inevitably occur. However, you certainly don't need to be roommates with those you don't get along well with. I would think that in most cases, the great friendships with some teammates would generally compensate for any strained relationships you might have with others. In any case, those teammates causing problems typically have little authority over you.

It's possible to limit contact and the impact on you of teammates you don't care for (or don't care for you) to some extent. I don't know how you could possibly do the same with coaches.

Trillium, while I may not agree or disagree with some of your statements what you're essentially saying is that the coach is responsible for all aspects of the student's life at college. Where do the parents come in? What about a girl that is sent away to college that drinks too much, parties too hard, and doesn't have her priorities straight? You're essentially saying that the coach needs to give her a speech - at the DIVISION ONE LEVEL - and say Hey, stop drinking, you're jeopardizing your play and the team. Shouldn't she already know that? Shouldn't her parents have said to her 'Look, you have this amazing opportunity to play at the highest level of hockey, make smart choices'. I'm sorry but kids are getting away WAY too easily with their behavior these days. It's always the coaches fault or they didn't like their teammates, etc, etc. Once anything goes wrong like a player is benched, they don't like the way a coached looked at them, you name it, suddenly they are signing their transfer forms faster than you can say your own name. And the PARENTS are 100% supporting this!
I also hate to burst your bubble but the youth coaches, before these girls get to college, are equally as responsible for these kids behaviors and priorities. There are girls playing college hockey that don't know how to play defense. They don't know how to take a proper slap shot. They think that skating through everyone is a style of hockey. Because that is how they are taught (or not taught) and habits are very hard to break, especially by the time you get to college.
I would just like to make it known that kids these days need to have fewer excuses offered to them (the coach sucks, their teammates suck) and more responsiblity put on their own actions and choices and start building some leaders instead of excuse makers.
Trillium, there is no malice towards you on this, it's just how I feel.

[Mr. Kitty]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I have been a fan of the UVM women for a while and I don't see any reason (or resources) that causes someone to call for a change at this point. It is very competitive to attract talent to a team that struggles at the bottom of a very tough conference, and that does not change overnight. UVM has put the resources behind this effort to yield results, but it isn't happening in the four years that everyone wants. Meanwhile, they have the best local female hockey player that Vermont has produced and they have great academic standards and they work as a team. I would love to have my daughter there with a coach who is passionate about improving and winning and who isn't off on the next bus and is of a high character caliber himself. I predict improvement in these next 4 years.

[Bauer86]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

"what you're essentially saying is that the coach is responsible for all aspects of the student's life at college. Where do the parents come in"...pucko...how are the parents responsible for how their kids act at college? how are parents supposed to control their daughters' partying habits other than tell them what they expect? the coach is the adult in charge of their program and along with that head position comes the responsibility to give their players expectations...if those expectations (not to drink for example) are not met there needs to be consequences. It is not youth coaches and teachers that are responsible for college kids' partying habits
I do agree with you in that girls now offer way too many excuses...but excuses are different than reasons and if the reasons are strong enough...that player has every right to leave a program.

[Trillium]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

what you're essentially saying is that the coach is responsible for all aspects of the student's life at college. Where do the parents come in? What about a girl that is sent away to college that drinks too much, parties too hard, and doesn't have her priorities straight?You're essentially saying that the coach needs to give her a speech - at the DIVISION ONE LEVEL - and say Hey, stop drinking, you're jeopardizing your play and the team. Shouldn't she already know that? Shouldn't her parents have said to her 'Look, you have this amazing opportunity to play at the highest level of hockey, make smart choices'. I'm sorry but kids are getting away WAY too easily with their behavior these days. It's always the coaches fault or they didn't like their teammates, etc, etc. Once anything goes wrong like a player is benched, they don't like the way a coached looked at them, you name it, suddenly they are signing their transfer forms faster than you can say your own name. And the PARENTS are 100% supporting this!

When did I ever say ANY of that?? I said that athletes need to be held accountable for their behaviour. That means by themselves. By their teammates. By their coaches and by their parents.

The point I was making is that coaches equally need to be held accountable for their behaviour, like everyone else. In the current environment they are not. Division 1 coaches in American society tend to be worshipped, and seen as capable of doing no wrong (at least as long as they are winning). Even when issues are brought to the AD, they are ignored. The recent Penn State situation and the firing of Paterno et al --20+ years after the fact is an extreme example to illustrate the point. The lackof accountability certain creates an environment where abuses of power are possible. Everyone seems to be ignoring this point, and does not see that this is a big problem. For example, where are the annual performance reviews and 360 degree feedback common in business management? How many leaders do you know in the private sector who have an dissatisfied and demoralized staff and/or who achieve poor results year after year who continue to keep their jobs? I don't know many successful companies who would continue to employ managers with the questionable leadership skills and management styles common to some coaches.

The responses seem to be reinforcing the point I was making. The Division 1 coach is typically assumed to be blameless. The common conclusion reached is that it is always, or usually the athlete's fault if things don't work out.

Since athletes leave certain programs at higher rates than the norm, or stories publicly abound about how unpleasant their experiences were about particular coaches year after year, in the grand scheme of things it's quite likely to have quite a bit to do with the coach. As they say, where there is smoke, there is fire.

I also hate to burst your bubble but the youth coaches, before these girls get to college, are equally as responsible for these kids behaviors and priorities. There are girls playing college hockey that don't know how to play defense. They don't know how to take a proper slap shot. They think that skating through everyone is a style of hockey. Because that is how they are taught (or not taught) and habits are very hard to break, especially by the time you get to college.
I would just like to make it known that kids these days need to have fewer excuses offered to them (the coach sucks, their teammates suck) and more responsiblity put on their own actions and choices and start building some leaders instead of excuse makers.
Trillium, there is no malice towards you on this, it's just how I feel.

I don't disagree with this either. I would only add that coaches don't need anyone else making excuses for their behaviour either...or blaming athletes for their own failings.

But I am not trying to imply that the blame is always with the coach, anymore than it is with an athlete. Things are never so black and while. Just trying to add some balance to the discussion.

[olive.juice]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

I have been a fan of the UVM women for a while and I don't see any reason (or resources) that causes someone to call for a change at this point. It is very competitive to attract talent to a team that struggles at the bottom of a very tough conference, and that does not change overnight. UVM has put the resources behind this effort to yield results, but it isn't happening in the four years that everyone wants. Meanwhile, they have the best local female hockey player that Vermont has produced and they have great academic standards and they work as a team. I would love to have my daughter there with a coach who is passionate about improving and winning and who isn't off on the next bus and is of a high character caliber himself. I predict improvement in these next 4 years.

,

Mr. Kitty you are completely off base here. While I agree with most responses to this thread, especially the ones referring to accountability and responsibility of coaches and players, the facts regarding Bothwell's lack of any success at UVM is the point. You say you have been watching this program for a while? Really? As Gilligan has brought in quality talent for the past 6 years do you believe that 6 or 7 wins a year (out of 35 games) is acceptable? This is LACK OF SUCCESS and the simple reason to CHANGE COACHES as 3 of the bottom dwelling teams have done in the last 4 years! How long should players, parents, staff, students, the AD (good luck with this one), and maybe even Bothwell himself wait to have success. It does not take 6 years to build a program let alone have some success while taking small steps each year. This is NOT happening at UVM.

FYI on "the best female hockey player that Vermont has produced" Have you watched her play? Very talented-skilled yes, very undisciplined too, all over the ice, on and off the ice when and if she wants. This is not helping build the program. Bothwell has very little control he might have had to use her to help build the program. She will leave unless there is a new coach. Take this to the bank. Trust me on this too, Bothwell does not demonstrate passion for much, certainly not improving and winning! Many wish he would be on the next bus. High character, well, won't go there now. Just do not hold your breath while predicting success in the next 4 years. Well maybe, certainly with a coaching change this will happen.

[mainiac]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

,

Mr. Kitty you are completely off base here. While I agree with most responses to this thread, especially the ones referring to accountability and responsibility of coaches and players, the facts regarding Bothwell's lack of any success at UVM is the point. You say you have been watching this program for a while? Really? As Gilligan has brought in quality talent for the past 6 years do you believe that 6 or 7 wins a year (out of 35 games) is acceptable? This is LACK OF SUCCESS and the simple reason to CHANGE COACHES as 3 of the bottom dwelling teams have done in the last 4 years! How long should players, parents, staff, students, the AD (good luck with this one), and maybe even Bothwell himself wait to have success. It does not take 6 years to build a program let alone have some success while taking small steps each year. This is NOT happening at UVM.

FYI on "the best female hockey player that Vermont has produced" Have you watched her play? Very talented-skilled yes, very undisciplined too, all over the ice, on and off the ice when and if she wants. This is not helping build the program. Bothwell has very little control he might have had to use her to help build the program. She will leave unless there is a new coach. Take this to the bank. Trust me on this too, Bothwell does not demonstrate passion for much, certainly not improving and winning! Many wish he would be on the next bus. High character, well, won't go there now. Just do not hold your breath while predicting success in the next 4 years. Well maybe, certainly with a coaching change this will happen.

Usually I stick to the D3 side of things but saw the title and was interested.......Just a question to throw out there if there ever is a change av UVM, but what does anyone out there think about Mark Bolding of Norwich getting a D1 shot at a local school like UVM.......this guy has been very successful very quickly at Norwich and all the players I have talked to love to play for him. I knew him as a player and have watched him since the beginning as a coach and I think this guy could get it done at any level. What are the thoughts on his chances if it ever happens???? Take it as a break in the "Bothwell bash" if you will...........

[glove]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

add McCloskey to the list of dinosaurs that keep losing players

interesting ,,,,

[Phil D. Stands]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

,

Mr. Kitty you are completely off base here. While I agree with most responses to this thread, especially the ones referring to accountability and responsibility of coaches and players, the facts regarding Bothwell's lack of any success at UVM is the point. You say you have been watching this program for a while? Really? As Gilligan has brought in quality talent for the past 6 years do you believe that 6 or 7 wins a year (out of 35 games) is acceptable? This is LACK OF SUCCESS and the simple reason to CHANGE COACHES as 3 of the bottom dwelling teams have done in the last 4 years! How long should players, parents, staff, students, the AD (good luck with this one), and maybe even Bothwell himself wait to have success. It does not take 6 years to build a program let alone have some success while taking small steps each year. This is NOT happening at UVM.

FYI on "the best female hockey player that Vermont has produced" Have you watched her play? Very talented-skilled yes, very undisciplined too, all over the ice, on and off the ice when and if she wants. This is not helping build the program. Bothwell has very little control he might have had to use her to help build the program. She will leave unless there is a new coach. Take this to the bank. Trust me on this too, Bothwell does not demonstrate passion for much, certainly not improving and winning! Many wish he would be on the next bus. High character, well, won't go there now. Just do not hold your breath while predicting success in the next 4 years. Well maybe, certainly with a coaching change this will happen.

For a Vermont opinion, I'd say that UVM does not march to the same beat as the rest of the conference and that the more cosmopolitan and big city "push for profits" is not the kind of model that works for UVM women's hockey. It would be nice if it showcased more Vermont talent, but they have Norwich and St Mikes and Castleton to do that. They aren't going to win it all and the coach has stated he would like to qualify for the playoffs (not the loftiest of goals), so if you listened while you signed then you shouldnt be so strident. There is not the alumni push from a BU or BC to win, win, win and the national championships on the men's side to meet that expectation. We take it a little slower here in Vermont and appreciate what we have a bit more. The fact that the AD and the coach are invested in stability and steady sustainable growth means a lot more than this quarter's sales or pumping up the profits to compete with the bigger guys when this niche satisfies the local fans, the university and the alumnae. Folks come here for vacation and a different pace -- is it a wonder that the work ethic isn't as NY or Boston as you'd like? Doesn't make it bad -- just different.

PS -- nice weekend against Conn with two ties -- all those ties last year show that they are playing team tight -- perhaps if the coach didn't run 4 balanced lines and went with 2 stacked ones, he'd break through more often

[Mr. Kitty]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

Usually I stick to the D3 side of things but saw the title and was interested.......Just a question to throw out there if there ever is a change av UVM, but what does anyone out there think about Mark Bolding of Norwich getting a D1 shot at a local school like UVM.......this guy has been very successful very quickly at Norwich and all the players I have talked to love to play for him. I knew him as a player and have watched him since the beginning as a coach and I think this guy could get it done at any level. What are the thoughts on his chances if it ever happens???? Take it as a break in the "Bothwell bash" if you will...........

Intriguing idea, but unlikely. More likely he can sign on to one of those programs that likes the revolving door like those OJ is advocating for.

UVM has had a "country club" reputation for the administration and faculty, and that is shown by its recent loss of their president who stepped down, but wants to stay around and teach there (and they are letting him). So, it doesn't seem the country club has changed much and with the inter-regnum you probably can't expect any more changes or disruption of the AD/coach bond/friendship. No mutatis mutandis at UVM. If Bothwell were to leave, it would be to become the AD, going on the school's record.

UVM for a student still is trying to shake its party-school status which was up there up until about 5-6 years ago. So, some of the scholar-athletes may be either influenced by the campus still and some may choose to come for the atmosphere as opposed to the competition.

[Bauer86]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

If a team's goal isn't to win a championship every year then what's the point of playing? Isn't that why teams invest in players? to win? If vermont is just more "laid-back" and "slower" as it was put...then why are they investing all of those scholarships and money into that program? so they dont win? also the series against ct this weekend was one of the most disgraceful games ive ever watched online (great clarity on the live-feed by the way..kudos to vt for that). hits from vt after the whistle...huertas tossed from the game...just dirty disgusting play from vt this weekend...its not what you like to see in hockey east play

[Mr. Kitty]

Re: Time for a change at UVM

If a team's goal isn't to win a championship every year then what's the point of playing? Isn't that why teams invest in players? to win? If vermont is just more "laid-back" and "slower" as it was put...then why are they investing all of those scholarships and money into that program? so they dont win? also the series against ct this weekend was one of the most disgraceful games ive ever watched online (great clarity on the live-feed by the way..kudos to vt for that). hits from vt after the whistle...huertas tossed from the game...just dirty disgusting play from vt this weekend...its not what you like to see in hockey east play

I have to admit that UVM did NOT distinguish itself with the less-than-sporting play. Late in the second, a Conn gal got whacked in the face with a stick on a face-off and nothing was seen or called although you could clearly see it on the feed at the time (yes, it was a great feed).