The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

[FreshFish]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

FWIW, I think each of the 5 teams have legitimate arguments as to why they should be #1. Obviously, some arguments are better than others. Ultimately though, it all came down to the formula.

Suppose for a moment that there was no formula, and you were picking the top teams of all time using more conventional criteria: win conference regular season, win conference tournament, win NCAA tournament, dominate opposition, have outstanding players, etc. etc. etc. In this universe, you have a team that did not lose a single game all season, you have another team that lost only one game all season. Maybe you poll 50 of the greatest, most knowledgeable men's NCAA division I hockey historians, writers, commenters, etc. and tally up the results of that poll. For now, just for conversation's sake, let's say they had a consensus on # 1 and # 2 as well. In this alternate universe, I just do not see how one makes a compelling argument that an 8-loss team "should" be ranked higher than these other two teams.

One might say that all of these other people and criteria are "wrong" or one might wonder whether maybe there is a subtle misplaced formula weighting on certain arcane criteria, no?

[Ralph Baer]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

The 1948-1949 Boston College Team is currently #31 (w/186.3212 points, just about 1 point away from top 25).
The 1953-1954 Rensselaer squad is currently #151.

You may also be interested that the 1983-1984 RPI team is currently #110.

FS23, was the 53-54 RPI team the lowest ranked NCAA champion team?

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Suppose for a moment that there was no formula, and you were picking the top teams of all time using more conventional criteria: win conference regular season, win conference tournament, win NCAA tournament, dominate opposition, have outstanding players, etc. etc. etc. In this universe, you have a team that did not lose a single game all season, you have another team that lost only one game all season. Maybe you poll 50 of the greatest, most knowledgeable men's NCAA division I hockey historians, writers, commenters, etc. and tally up the results of that poll. For now, just for conversation's sake, let's say they had a consensus on # 1 and # 2 as well. In this alternate universe, I just do not see how one makes a compelling argument that an 8-loss team "should" be ranked higher than these other two teams.

One might say that all of these other people and criteria are "wrong" or one might wonder whether maybe there is a subtle misplaced formula weighting on certain arcane criteria, no?

I suppose the argument would be that the '87 Sioux squad was more dominant throughout the season, beating more quality opponents by higher margins. That's not to say that I agree with that, and of course we're debating the unknown. Perhaps we should come back to this particular discussion when the final rankings are released?

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

FS23, was the 53-54 RPI team the lowest ranked NCAA champion team?

No. That honor would belong to the 1965-1966 Michigan State Spartans, currently ranked #299, and that will likely fall when more NCAA Tournament Teams are added, as that Spartan squad only tallied 32.2226 points. The 1958-1959 North Dakota Fighting Sioux are the second lowest ranked champion, currently ranked #275 with 54.9651 points.

[FreshFish]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Perhaps we should come back to this particular discussion when the final rankings are released?

Perhaps

...I wonder if some of your "strengh of schedule" / "strength of conference" formulas might have a subtle, latent miscalculation by including games played against the team under consideration in their overall record?

I don't have the facts at hand, let's suppose team A beats team B three times in a season, and team B's overall record is 29 - 7, so that team B makes the tournament. One might say that team A is a dominant team, but if in the formula, team B's record includes the three losses to team A, then team B's overall strength is understated; it should be viewed as a 29 - 4 team when calculating just how dominant team A was. Similar with strength of conference. If team A does not lose to anyone in their conference all year, all of the other teams' losses to team A should be subtracted from their schedule when calculating how strong the conference "really" was that year.

In other word, if team A is a truly dominant team, then every other team it plays will look relatively weaker by comparison, which then masks how truly dominant team A was when comparing it to other teams from other years.



You can't be more "dominant" than winning every game you play including the NCAA tournament, by definition! you can be almost equally dominant, you cannot be "more" dominant.

[Ralph Baer]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

No. That honor would belong to the 1965-1966 Michigan State Spartans, currently ranked #299, and that will likely fall when more NCAA Tournament Teams are added, as that Spartan squad only tallied 32.2226 points. The 1958-1959 North Dakota Fighting Sioux are the second lowest ranked champion, currently ranked #275 with 54.9651 points.

I forgot about the 1966 MSU squad. They were lucky to play what must have been an overconfident Clarkson team who beat them during the season.

[Proud2baLaker]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

May I ask where the following LSSU teams rank:

87-88
90-91
91-92
92-93
93-94

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Perhaps

...I wonder if some of your "strengh of schedule" / "strength of conference" formulas might have a subtle, latent miscalculation by including games played against the team under consideration in their overall record?

I don't have the facts at hand, let's suppose team A beats team B three times in a season, and team B's overall record is 29 - 7, so that team B makes the tournament. One might say that team A is a dominant team, but if in the formula, team B's record includes the three losses to team A, then team B's overall strength is understated; it should be viewed as a 29 - 4 team when calculating just how dominant team A was. Similar with strength of conference. If team A does not lose to anyone in their conference all year, all of the other teams' losses to team A should be subtracted from their schedule when calculating how strong the conference "really" was that year.

In other word, if team A is a truly dominant team, then every other team it plays will look relatively weaker by comparison, which then masks how truly dominant team A was when comparing it to other teams from other years.

As for conference strength, that was tied more so to out of conference play than in-conference play. For SOS purposes, losses (along with wins and ties) were taken out of the equation when factoring the specific team's SOS.

You can't be more "dominant" than winning every game you play including the NCAA tournament, by definition! you can be almost equally dominant, you cannot be "more" dominant.

That depends on the eye of the beholder, and what "dominant" means. If Team A wins 50 games by 1 goal, and Team B wins 49 of 50, and the 49 wins were each by 10 goals, assuming the two sides never played each other, which side is more dominant? There are good arguments either way, and there is really not a "wrong" answer IMO.

[state of hockey]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

If only the 70-71 Gophers could have beaten BU in the championship game. They would have ended the year 15-16-2 and been NCAA Champs.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

I forgot about the 1966 MSU squad. They were lucky to play what must have been an overconfident Clarkson team who beat them during the season.

Yeah, that '66 Clarkson squad is currently #92 with 140.301 points.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

If only the 70-71 Gophers could have beaten BU in the championship game. They would have ended the year 15-16-2 and been NCAA Champs.

That was the worst Final/Frozen Four team of all-time in the formula, with -8.0661 points. Had they won that game, they would barely have been on the + side of things.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

May I ask where the following LSSU teams rank:

87-88
90-91
91-92
92-93
93-94

1991-1992 LSSU is currently #47 (168.116)
1987-1988 LSSU is currently #48 (167.2944)
1990-1991 LSSU is currently #55 (161.0032)
1993-1994 LSSU is currently #135 (120.7476)
1992-1993 LSSU is currently #136 (120.4959)

[Proud2baLaker]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

1991-1992 LSSU is currently #47 (168.116)
1987-1988 LSSU is currently #48 (167.2944)
1990-1991 LSSU is currently #55 (161.0032)
1993-1994 LSSU is currently #135 (120.7476)
1992-1993 LSSU is currently #136 (120.4959)

Thanks. I was hoping one of those teams would have been at least close to cracking the top 25. Oh well.

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

I wouldn't necessarily make that assumption.

hmm, somehow, I was unsubscribed to this thread...Well, considering if I don't make some assumption similar to that, it would have taken me forever to calculate all the possibilities...240 vs the 12 I did calculate...

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

Thanks. I was hoping one of those teams would have been at least close to cracking the top 25. Oh well.

They were definitely a dominant program in those years, and having teams in the top 100 is nothing to get too disappointed about...especially when you think that there have been over 3,000 teams to compete for the NCAA Championship.