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Thread: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

  1. #181
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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
    There are a couple others from that list as well that didn't. Apparently I have a flawed calculation.
    pardon me on harvard, fun trying to do that research rather quickly and misreading what "ecac champion" means vs regular season. In my haste, I screwed that up. The fact that a couple of teams can win all 3 pieces of hardware and not be considered a top 25 team of all time behind teams that didn't win it all does seem flawed to me.
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  2. #182

    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    pardon me on harvard, fun trying to do that research rather quickly and misreading what "ecac champion" means vs regular season. In my haste, I screwed that up. The fact that a couple of teams can win all 3 pieces of hardware and not be considered a top 25 team of all time behind teams that didn't win it all does seem flawed to me.
    It is a legit criticism, but it is important to remember, at least in regards to this formula, that conference strength plays a role in how many points a team gets for those conference titles. For example, the 2005 WCHA Titles were worth quite a bit more than the 2005 CCHA Titles.. Whether you agree with that philosophy or not is completely up to you. I have never claimed that it is a perfect formula, but it was the best that I could come up with, and I think it does a good job of ranking a team's dominance.
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  3. #183
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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
    It is a legit criticism, but it is important to remember, at least in regards to this formula, that conference strength plays a role in how many points a team gets for those conference titles. For example, the 2005 WCHA Titles were worth quite a bit more than the 2005 CCHA Titles.. Whether you agree with that philosophy or not is completely up to you. I have never claimed that it is a perfect formula, but it was the best that I could come up with, and I think it does a good job of ranking a team's dominance.
    You outlined the components of your formula early in this thread (# 19). [punctuation of quote edited, words unchanged]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
    basically the methodology was to build a formula that accurately reflected how strong a team was, both nationally and in conference:

    > Basically, conference accolades (Regular Season Championship, Tournament Championship, All-Conference members, etc.) built conference points, and then conference points were compared with how strong the conference was.
    > Then, national accolades (NCAA Tournament performance, Out of Conference Play, All-American members, etc.) built national points, which stood on their own.
    > Those two sections were added together to come up with total points.
    Not sure if you want to speak in general terms about some of the relative importance of these criteria or not, it might calm the roiling waters slightly. Note One.

    For those who like to cry 'bias', it might help them drill down: where on this list of criteria is the 'bias', exactly?

    I myself would not use the word 'bias' as that is pejorative; a word like 'judgment' or 'necessary subjectivity in assigning weights' is perfectly understandable Note Two.


    I really appreciate what you've undertaken and the patient and thorough manner with which you've explained it.


    Dissenters please refer to specific parts of the formula rather than dismiss the whole thing out of hand merely because you don't like which way it was going Note Three



    Note One Are Regular Season and Tournament Champion the same value? do you weight All-Conference members by number of teams in the conference? blah blah blah for the cogniscenti, ho hum yawn for everyone else


    Note Twowould you need to develop a sub-formula to assess relative strength of conference to feed into the formula for the conference strenght multiplier that calculates conference points?? or the "out of conference play" component, if you beat Michigan twice in out of conference play in a year, do you change the value of those points depending upon how strong Michigan was that particular year, or do you have an 'average' value for beating Michigan in out of conference play no matter in what year you beat them? etc.

    Note ThreeRegarding that Harvard team, you did say they came in # 30 on your list and were not very many points away at all, a small bounce here or there might have moved them up ten spots (maybe later I will edit this and find that post in this thread too, we'll see).
    Last edited by FreshFish; 11-04-2011 at 06:07 PM.
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  4. #184

    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    Note One Are Regular Season and Tournament Champion the same value? do you weight All-Conference members by number of teams in the conference? blah blah blah for the cogniscenti, ho hum yawn for everyone else
    No. Depending on the conference, the regular season or tournament title is worth more. For Hockey East and ECAC, the Tournament Title is given greater weight than the Regular Season title. This was done because when I originally came up with the formula, I asked Hockey East and ECAC fans on this board which title they thought should get more weight. In the WCHA, the Regular Season conference title is given more weight than the Tournament Title, as out west the MacNaughton is highly revered. In the CCHA and Atlantic conferences, they are given equal weight. Overall, the same amount of raw points are handed out for each conference, so when you compare say a team that won both Hockey East titles and both WCHA titles, they will have the same amount of raw points. Obviously, then the conference strength comes into play.


    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish
    Note Twowould you need to develop a sub-formula to assess relative strength of conference to feed into the formula for the conference strenght multiplier that calculates conference points?? or the "out of conference play" component, if you beat Michigan twice in out of conference play in a year, do you change the value of those points depending upon how strong Michigan was that particular year, or do you have an 'average' value for beating Michigan in out of conference play no matter in what year you beat them? etc.
    The formula has several sub-formulas, including one determine conference strength. The basic components are how well that particular team did OOC, how well the conference as a whole did out of conference, and how well that conference did in the ncaa tournament. There are a variety of other smaller components, but they hold relatively little value, and honestly if I were building the formula again would probably dismiss them. When dealing with beating a specific team, there are actually several areas of the formula that deal with this (i.e. were they a tournament team? what was the goal differential? etc...), but the conference strength portion doesn't really other than helps boost your conference strength which helps in relation to other parts of the formula.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish
    Note ThreeRegarding that Harvard team, you did say they came in # 30 on your list and were not very many points away at all, a small bounce here or there might have moved them up ten spots (maybe later I will edit this and find that post in this thread too, we'll see).
    Exactly. If Harvard wins the ECAC Tournament, they are in the top 25. I forget exactly where it put them, but I want to say it was in the mid-teens. They were a very good team.
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  5. #185
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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
    It is a legit criticism, but it is important to remember, at least in regards to this formula, that conference strength plays a role in how many points a team gets for those conference titles. For example, the 2005 WCHA Titles were worth quite a bit more than the 2005 CCHA Titles.. Whether you agree with that philosophy or not is completely up to you. I have never claimed that it is a perfect formula, but it was the best that I could come up with, and I think it does a good job of ranking a team's dominance.
    I understand that you weighted things but like I said in my first post in this thread, the fact that any team that didn't win the National Championship can be considered among the "greatest" is kinda silly. Yes its a single elimination tournament but to be Great, you have to finish. You have to win it all. North Dakota was definitely the favorite last year, it was their title to lose, but they lost and therefore should not be considered one of the 25 greatest teams of all time when you yourself have said teams that won every piece of relevant hardware available to them did not make the top 25. Obviously you came up with your formula and went with it. I enjoy your lists as much as anyone. This one just frustrates me.
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  6. #186
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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    I understand that you weighted things but like I said in my first post in this thread, the fact that any team that didn't win the National Championship can be considered among the "greatest" is kinda silly. Yes its a single elimination tournament but to be Great, you have to finish. You have to win it all. North Dakota was definitely the favorite last year, it was their title to lose, but they lost and therefore should not be considered one of the 25 greatest teams of all time when you yourself have said teams that won every piece of relevant hardware available to them did not make the top 25. Obviously you came up with your formula and went with it. I enjoy your lists as much as anyone. This one just frustrates me.
    There have been a lot more than 25 teams to win the NC in the NCAA era so I think it's easy to see why a team can be ranked in the top 25 without winning the NC. And North Dakota was not the favorite last year - BC was the run-away favorite, and didn't make it out of the regional.
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  7. #187

    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Siouxfaninseattle View Post
    There have been a lot more than 25 teams to win the NC in the NCAA era so I think it's easy to see why a team can be ranked in the top 25 without winning the NC. And North Dakota was not the favorite last year - BC was the run-away favorite, and didn't make it out of the regional.
    Shirtless Guy was talking about teams that won their Conference Regular Season Title, Conference Tournament Title and then the National Title.
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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    I'm thinking that 1969-1970 for the Big Red almost has to be #1 or #2. Can't even say they played a cupcake schedule because the ECAC those days meant BU, Clarkson, and BC. Heck they played Clarkson for the ECAC title and the national title. Hopefully another title banner will someday grace the cathedral we call Lynah Rink.

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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    the fact that any team that didn't win the National Championship can be considered among the "greatest" is kinda silly. Yes its a single elimination tournament but to be Great, you have to finish. You have to win it all.
    In US Major League baseball, the person with the second-highest season batting average ever also finished second that season.

    The only person ever to hit over 60 home runs in three seasons did not win the home run title in any of those seasons.

    If you have the second-greatest team ever and the greatest team ever beats you, you can still be one of the greatest.

    (not saying this actually did happen, however I can see how it might be a bit strange if a team that did not win it all is listed higher than the team that beat them....)
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  10. #190
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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    In US Major League baseball, the person with the second-highest season batting average ever also finished second that season.

    The only person ever to hit over 60 home runs in three seasons did not win the home run title in any of those seasons.

    If you have the second-greatest team ever and the greatest team ever beats you, you can still be one of the greatest.

    (not saying this actually did happen, however I can see how it might be a bit strange if a team that did not win it all is listed higher than the team that beat them....)
    Sure, thats true, but as an example, Michigan and UMD are not going to be top 25 for last season yet North Dakota is according to FS23.
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  11. #191

    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    Sure, thats true, but as an example, Michigan and UMD are not going to be top 25 for last season yet North Dakota is according to FS23.
    True. The example that I like to showcase is the 2003-2004 season. North Dakota went 3-0-1 against Denver in the regular season, outscoring the Pioneers 21-6 in those four games. Denver finished tied for 4th in the WCHA, and failed to make the Final Five, while North Dakota won the WCHA and lost an epic title game to the two time defending champions. In the Regional Final, North Dakota outplayed the Pioneers, but lost 1-0 on a fluke goal scored with just over two minutes left. Denver went on to win the National Title behind amazing goaltending and timely scoring.

    Was Denver a better team than North Dakota that season?

    Depending on how you answer that question should shape how you view the formula.

    I'll answer it this way. I would much rather have had Denver's season than North Dakota's because they won the most important title. However, I would never say that Denver was a better team than North Dakota that year.

    Using the logic that Michigan should be higher rated than North Dakota last season, would also lead you to conclusions that Holy Cross in '06 was better than Minnesota, or that BU was better than Michigan in '97. IMO, those are flawed conclusions because you can't base dominance over an entire season based on one game.
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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    Sure, thats true, but as an example, Michigan and UMD are not going to be top 25 for last season yet North Dakota is according to FS23.
    Yes, but maybe one of the Dryden era Cornell teams may make the list or the Clarkson team that lost in the final in 70 among other teams.

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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    I understand that you weighted things but like I said in my first post in this thread, the fact that any team that didn't win the National Championship can be considered among the "greatest" is kinda silly. Yes its a single elimination tournament but to be Great, you have to finish. You have to win it all. North Dakota was definitely the favorite last year, it was their title to lose, but they lost and therefore should not be considered one of the 25 greatest teams of all time when you yourself have said teams that won every piece of relevant hardware available to them did not make the top 25. Obviously you came up with your formula and went with it. I enjoy your lists as much as anyone. This one just frustrates me.
    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    In US Major League baseball, the person with the second-highest season batting average ever also finished second that season.

    The only person ever to hit over 60 home runs in three seasons did not win the home run title in any of those seasons.

    If you have the second-greatest team ever and the greatest team ever beats you, you can still be one of the greatest.

    (not saying this actually did happen, however I can see how it might be a bit strange if a team that did not win it all is listed higher than the team that beat them....)
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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
    Using the logic that Michigan should be higher rated than North Dakota last season, would also lead you to conclusions that Holy Cross in '06 was better than Minnesota, or that BU was better than Michigan in '97. IMO, those are flawed conclusions because you can't base dominance over an entire season based on one game.
    What makes the national tournament so exciting is also what makes it flawed: you occasionally see upsets (and teams finishing lower in the WCHA standings advancing to the F4 while the league champion gets knocked out earlier in the tournament is hardly a new phenomenon).

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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    I understand that you weighted things but like I said in my first post in this thread, the fact that any team that didn't win the National Championship can be considered among the "greatest" is kinda silly. Yes its a single elimination tournament but to be Great, you have to finish. You have to win it all. North Dakota was definitely the favorite last year, it was their title to lose, but they lost and therefore should not be considered one of the 25 greatest teams of all time when you yourself have said teams that won every piece of relevant hardware available to them did not make the top 25. Obviously you came up with your formula and went with it. I enjoy your lists as much as anyone. This one just frustrates me.

    there were years where at the NCAA FF, one game played Thursday, the other game played Friday, and the final was Saturday. almost all of the teams with an extra day's rest won.
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  16. #196

    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

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  17. #197

    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Mostly for FreshFish, but I will be posting the point values for #16 and #17 later today. Also, I might even be tempted to post the point values for #11-15 while I am at it...perhaps some guessing could commence on who those spots belong to.
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  18. #198

    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    So here are the point values of teams #11-25

    #11 - _____________ 210.013
    #12 - _____________ 206.636158
    #13 - _____________ 206.388
    #14 - _____________ 204.7648
    #15 - _____________ 203.69608
    #16 - '55-'56 Clarkson 203.691
    #17 - '03-'04 North Dakota 201.94
    #18 - '80-'81 Minnesota 200.2265
    #19 - '95-'96 Michigan 197.7472
    #20 - '00-'01 Boston College 192.217
    #21 - '10-'11 North Dakota 192.042
    #22 - '55-'56 Michigan 191.7456
    #23 - '79-'80 North Dakota 189.6925
    #24 - '70-'71 Boston University 187.55626
    #25 - '94-'95 Boston University 187.36
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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
    So here are the point values of teams #11-25
    So 12 and 13 are effectively tied, as are 15 and 16, and 20 and 21, and 24 and 25, while there is more separation between 11 and 12, or between 19 and 20.

    I don't know enough to begin guessing yet.
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    Re: The Top 25 College Hockey Teams of the NCAA Era

    Hmm, let's see, my "guess" for # 15 would be 1966 - 1967 Cornell team.....
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