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  • #16
    Re: Concussions

    Originally posted by 5 4 Fighting View Post

    There are just as many hockey players getting concussions in that helmet as there are in any other brand.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Concussions

      Originally posted by fantasticfrito View Post
      There are just as many hockey players getting concussions in that helmet as there are in any other brand.
      Do you have specific info regarding that? I'm not saying it's better or worse or the same.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Concussions

        Originally posted by giwan View Post
        Do you have specific info regarding that? I'm not saying it's better or worse or the same.
        I don't have any recorded numbers, but I know just from talking to staff members from various teams of both genders throughout both high school
        and college hockey. Helmets do not prevent concussions, and I'd be very wary of any manufacturer that makes any such claims. I know that the
        messier helmet no longer claims that, but when they first came out the were touted as the concussion proof helmet. The most important part of
        reducing concussion risk in any helmet is fit. But if you get hit hard enough, even at open ice with no direct head impact, you might still get a
        concussion.

        I'm very interested in the physiological differences between men and women that causes such a disparity in concussion numbers in "contact" sports. I
        think in the next few years there will be a lot more info to help reduce the number in women's sports. I think as weight lifting becomes more
        important to hockey teams it will help with some of those issues. It was touched on above about how a stronger neck might help to reduce the risk.

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        • #19
          Re: Concussions

          Originally posted by ARM View Post
          Unfortunately, I've experienced the "bouncing brain" situation first hand -- that probably explains a lot. You may be right that the strength of the neck isn't that important in certain situations, and I'm certainly not an expert. The way I visualize it is suppose that a head is a bucket mounted on top of a spring that equates to a neck. The brain isn't like a golfball rolling around inside the bucket -- well, maybe in my case. The brain is more like a water balloon that is of a similar size to the inside of the bucket. If the bucket is jarred sufficiently, the water starts sloshing around in the balloon. But with a more heavy-duty spring, the bucket can absorb a more severe blow without wild perturbations of the bucket and ultimately the water. Any reduction in bouncing of the brain likely helps in limiting the injury.
          We're both fully paid members of the same club. I wonder how many other forumites are.

          When I used the term "bounce" I was using it very loosely...I realize that there is not much space between the brain and the skull...but before reading your last post I was thinking that it is almost counter-intuitive that the neck would be able to act as a shock absorber in the examples that I last gave...in other words, it would seem that if the head could keep moving after the initial impact and eventually decrease the speed of that "moving" that there would be a "soft landing" for the brain on the back side of the skull...like when a skater pulls their stick back to accept a pass, thereby minimizing the impact so as to increase control over the puck so that the puck doesn't go bouning off the blade of their stick. That's the way it seems to me...in other words, that the neck isn't able to allow the skull to travel far enough after the initial impact in order to provide that "soft landing" simply because it's not long enough but then again, I'm no expert either.

          I'd be interested to hear what those who watched the video thought of it. Only one comment on it, so far.
          Last edited by Blackbeard; 10-08-2011, 09:37 PM.

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          • #20
            Re: Concussions

            Originally posted by fantasticfrito View Post
            Helmets do not prevent concussions...
            Very true, but the newer, better quality helmets obviously offer more protection than the older cheaper ones.
            Minnesota Golden Gopher Hockey

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            • #21
              Re: Concussions

              Originally posted by D2D View Post
              Very true, but the newer, better quality helmets obviously offer more protection than the older cheaper ones.
              There are better helmets; they really have nothing to do with how you get concussed.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Concussions

                Originally posted by fantasticfrito View Post
                There are just as many hockey players getting concussions in that helmet as there are in any other brand.
                I prob should have clarified..I didn't put the site up to promote the helmet per se but more for the info that can be found under the "Epidemic" tab. There's good info there...sorry if I mislead.

                Having said that...have a look at Aaron Rodgers of the Green Bay Packers helmet..I believe it utilizes the Seven technology or a reasonable facsimile.
                Last edited by 5 4 Fighting; 10-09-2011, 10:37 AM. Reason: spell chick

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                • #23
                  Re: Concussions

                  Originally posted by D2D View Post
                  Very true, but the newer, better quality helmets obviously offer more protection than the older cheaper ones.
                  I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. If they meet the ASTM standard then that's what they all meet.

                  It often happens that what seems to be a logical improvement for safety is not the case. I've personally done testing of helmets and other safety items and gotten unexpected results, later to find the item was less safe.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Concussions

                    Originally posted by giwan View Post
                    I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. If they meet the ASTM standard then that's what they all meet.

                    It often happens that what seems to be a logical improvement for safety is not the case. I've personally done testing of helmets and other safety items and gotten unexpected results, later to find the item was less safe.
                    Just curious, as an example, have you tested the Bauer 9900? I'd be shocked if this top-of-line $200 helmet doesn't offer better protection than an older, entry level youth model that costs $40 or less.

                    If you go back 50 years, helmets were still being made of leather and covered only about half the head, with lots of gaps, and maybe these were just as good as today's best models? Exactly when did manufacturers stop improving their products?

                    Companies like Bauer continue to spend lots of time and money into the design of improved models, but I guess you're saying that buyers of their latest and best examples are pretty much just wasting their money? Which product would you choose, if it was for your own daughter?

                    I know it's just an ad, but the various links off this site are pretty interesting:

                    http://www.bauer.com/gear/player/helmetsfacial
                    Minnesota Golden Gopher Hockey

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Concussions

                      Anybody interested in this topic should google Kevin Guskiewicz or Jason Mihalik. These guys have spent endless time researching the cause and effect of sports related concussions and in particular hockey. Jason spoke at a level IV clinic I was at a few years ago and he discussed the research that they have done. They are sponsored or work at the University of North Carolina and are part of the Matthew Gfeller Sport-Related traumatic brain injury research center. From what he discussed at the clinic it was clear to me that the quality of the helmet and the proper use and fit was key in reducing (not eliminating) these injuries. What was surprising to me was they found that mouth guards were not as effective as I had always been lead to believe. While they did not advocate not using mouth guards (more for dental reasons IIRC) they did stress the importance of using a “high quality” helmet (no specific brand endorsement) with the proper fit and discarding those helmets after a significant impact that led to a injury. One other interesting note included test fitting a helmet with wet hair to simulate the fit when the athlete was sweating.. I agree with one post that said helmets can not prevent concussions but I believe now that the quality of the helmet can play a part in preventing such an injury.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Concussions

                        Originally posted by D2D View Post
                        Just curious, as an example, have you tested the Bauer 9900? I'd be shocked if this top-of-line $200 helmet doesn't offer better protection than an older, entry level youth model that costs $40 or less. If you go back 50 years, helmets were still being made of leather and covered only about half the head, with lots of gaps, and maybe these were just as good as today's best models? Exactly when did manufacturers stop improving their products?Companies like Bauer continue to spend lots of time and money into the design of improved models, but I guess you're saying that buyers of their latest and best examples are pretty much just wasting their money? Which product would you choose, if it was for your own daughter?
                        I know it's just an ad, but the various links off this site are pretty interesting:
                        http://www.bauer.com/gear/player/helmetsfacial
                        My point is the manufacturer only HAS to meet the ASTM or ANSI standard both of which came from biking helmets. I do not test helmets now but did as well as padding. Is the $200 helmet better maybe, maybe not. maybe it feels better on the persons head so they wear are more likely to wear it properly? Show me data that shows one is better then the other? Ever notice what helmets many of the pros use? Look at the padding inside you can often see it while they meet at the bench.

                        I was also an athletic trainer with a college hockey and football team so I am very aware of fit being important.

                        Leather helmets had no standard to meet. Do the companies do research sure, more then likely farm it out to a university as you read in that link. No data stating how much better or if it was statistically significant. Now if a company had CLEAR obvious data showing the benefits why would they not show it all? When I do competitive tests now and our company product beats the other then that test data, and report is available to the buyers of the product.

                        By the way I do have a daughter and pay attention to what she wears, how it fits and most important that she is physically in proper shape to play. I actually do neck resistance exercises with her and I do not mean weight lifting.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Concussions

                          Originally posted by PuckFan92 View Post
                          Anybody interested in this topic should google Kevin Guskiewicz or Jason Mihalik. These guys have spent endless time researching the cause and effect of sports related concussions and in particular hockey. Jason spoke at a level IV clinic I was at a few years ago and he discussed the research that they have done. They are sponsored or work at the University of North Carolina and are part of the Matthew Gfeller Sport-Related traumatic brain injury research center. From what he discussed at the clinic it was clear to me that the quality of the helmet and the proper use and fit was key in reducing (not eliminating) these injuries. What was surprising to me was they found that mouth guards were not as effective as I had always been lead to believe. While they did not advocate not using mouth guards (more for dental reasons IIRC) they did stress the importance of using a “high quality” helmet (no specific brand endorsement) with the proper fit and discarding those helmets after a significant impact that led to a injury. One other interesting note included test fitting a helmet with wet hair to simulate the fit when the athlete was sweating.. I agree with one post that said helmets can not prevent concussions but I believe now that the quality of the helmet can play a part in preventing such an injury.
                          The highlighted statement is what few folks are willing to do. I have talked to numerous parents after their kid has had a concussion, and few will acknowledge that this needs to be done. The helmets that have the black EPS (expanded polystyrene) are designed to absorb an impact and displace energy. However, in doing so, the impact area deforms, rendering that area of the helmet lining ineffective at dispersing energy in subsequent impacts. This is true of motorcycle, bicycle, skate/snowboard, and hockey helmets made using EPS.

                          It is interesting to note (and I say this from direct observation of what has transpired in a Pro practice facility) that many pro teams have gone away from the "Hi-end" EPS type helmet and back to the older style helmets with the basic foam liner.
                          Last edited by Hux; 10-10-2011, 10:36 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Concussions

                            Originally posted by fantasticfrito View Post
                            There are just as many hockey players getting concussions in that helmet as there are in any other brand.
                            I don't have any facts but I can relate one experience from one high school in Minnesota that bought the M11 helmets for boys and girls. After one year the equipment manager threw them in the garbage. He refused to donate them to anyone else because he thought they were dangerous. Not only did the girls and boys have more concussions than previous years (which could have been an anomaly), the helmets had a tendency to fall apart after big checks in the boys games. Some of the boys were frustrated because they went back to the bench with a damaged helmet and missed shifts while they fixed the helmet. I don't know if others had the same experience but that was one high school's story.
                            Last edited by SlewFoot; 10-10-2011, 11:03 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Concussions

                              Here's chapter 2...Peter Mansbridge again on tonight's "The National" giving more major and expensive airtime to the topic of head injuries in hockey. Check out the star studded panel...Cassie Campbell, Scotty Bowman, Ken Dryden and Elliot Friedman...

                              http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...#id=2151882619

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Concussions

                                And then there's this video, again from tonight's "The National", which focuses more on head injuries that result from fighting. Seems like the NHL is less interested in the players' physical well being than they are in the league's collective revenue stream.

                                http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...#id=2153939718

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