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Thread: Concussions

  1. #21
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    Re: Concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by D2D View Post
    Very true, but the newer, better quality helmets obviously offer more protection than the older cheaper ones.
    There are better helmets; they really have nothing to do with how you get concussed.

  2. #22
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    Re: Concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by fantasticfrito View Post
    There are just as many hockey players getting concussions in that helmet as there are in any other brand.
    I prob should have clarified..I didn't put the site up to promote the helmet per se but more for the info that can be found under the "Epidemic" tab. There's good info there...sorry if I mislead.

    Having said that...have a look at Aaron Rodgers of the Green Bay Packers helmet..I believe it utilizes the Seven technology or a reasonable facsimile.
    Last edited by 5 4 Fighting; 10-09-2011 at 10:37 AM. Reason: spell chick

  3. #23
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    Re: Concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by D2D View Post
    Very true, but the newer, better quality helmets obviously offer more protection than the older cheaper ones.
    I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. If they meet the ASTM standard then that's what they all meet.

    It often happens that what seems to be a logical improvement for safety is not the case. I've personally done testing of helmets and other safety items and gotten unexpected results, later to find the item was less safe.

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    Re: Concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by giwan View Post
    I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. If they meet the ASTM standard then that's what they all meet.

    It often happens that what seems to be a logical improvement for safety is not the case. I've personally done testing of helmets and other safety items and gotten unexpected results, later to find the item was less safe.
    Just curious, as an example, have you tested the Bauer 9900? I'd be shocked if this top-of-line $200 helmet doesn't offer better protection than an older, entry level youth model that costs $40 or less.

    If you go back 50 years, helmets were still being made of leather and covered only about half the head, with lots of gaps, and maybe these were just as good as today's best models? Exactly when did manufacturers stop improving their products?

    Companies like Bauer continue to spend lots of time and money into the design of improved models, but I guess you're saying that buyers of their latest and best examples are pretty much just wasting their money? Which product would you choose, if it was for your own daughter?

    I know it's just an ad, but the various links off this site are pretty interesting:

    http://www.bauer.com/gear/player/helmetsfacial
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    Re: Concussions

    Anybody interested in this topic should google Kevin Guskiewicz or Jason Mihalik. These guys have spent endless time researching the cause and effect of sports related concussions and in particular hockey. Jason spoke at a level IV clinic I was at a few years ago and he discussed the research that they have done. They are sponsored or work at the University of North Carolina and are part of the Matthew Gfeller Sport-Related traumatic brain injury research center. From what he discussed at the clinic it was clear to me that the quality of the helmet and the proper use and fit was key in reducing (not eliminating) these injuries. What was surprising to me was they found that mouth guards were not as effective as I had always been lead to believe. While they did not advocate not using mouth guards (more for dental reasons IIRC) they did stress the importance of using a “high quality” helmet (no specific brand endorsement) with the proper fit and discarding those helmets after a significant impact that led to a injury. One other interesting note included test fitting a helmet with wet hair to simulate the fit when the athlete was sweating.. I agree with one post that said helmets can not prevent concussions but I believe now that the quality of the helmet can play a part in preventing such an injury.

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    Re: Concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by D2D View Post
    Just curious, as an example, have you tested the Bauer 9900? I'd be shocked if this top-of-line $200 helmet doesn't offer better protection than an older, entry level youth model that costs $40 or less. If you go back 50 years, helmets were still being made of leather and covered only about half the head, with lots of gaps, and maybe these were just as good as today's best models? Exactly when did manufacturers stop improving their products?Companies like Bauer continue to spend lots of time and money into the design of improved models, but I guess you're saying that buyers of their latest and best examples are pretty much just wasting their money? Which product would you choose, if it was for your own daughter?
    I know it's just an ad, but the various links off this site are pretty interesting:
    http://www.bauer.com/gear/player/helmetsfacial
    My point is the manufacturer only HAS to meet the ASTM or ANSI standard both of which came from biking helmets. I do not test helmets now but did as well as padding. Is the $200 helmet better maybe, maybe not. maybe it feels better on the persons head so they wear are more likely to wear it properly? Show me data that shows one is better then the other? Ever notice what helmets many of the pros use? Look at the padding inside you can often see it while they meet at the bench.

    I was also an athletic trainer with a college hockey and football team so I am very aware of fit being important.

    Leather helmets had no standard to meet. Do the companies do research sure, more then likely farm it out to a university as you read in that link. No data stating how much better or if it was statistically significant. Now if a company had CLEAR obvious data showing the benefits why would they not show it all? When I do competitive tests now and our company product beats the other then that test data, and report is available to the buyers of the product.

    By the way I do have a daughter and pay attention to what she wears, how it fits and most important that she is physically in proper shape to play. I actually do neck resistance exercises with her and I do not mean weight lifting.

  7. #27
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    Re: Concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by PuckFan92 View Post
    Anybody interested in this topic should google Kevin Guskiewicz or Jason Mihalik. These guys have spent endless time researching the cause and effect of sports related concussions and in particular hockey. Jason spoke at a level IV clinic I was at a few years ago and he discussed the research that they have done. They are sponsored or work at the University of North Carolina and are part of the Matthew Gfeller Sport-Related traumatic brain injury research center. From what he discussed at the clinic it was clear to me that the quality of the helmet and the proper use and fit was key in reducing (not eliminating) these injuries. What was surprising to me was they found that mouth guards were not as effective as I had always been lead to believe. While they did not advocate not using mouth guards (more for dental reasons IIRC) they did stress the importance of using a “high quality” helmet (no specific brand endorsement) with the proper fit and discarding those helmets after a significant impact that led to a injury. One other interesting note included test fitting a helmet with wet hair to simulate the fit when the athlete was sweating.. I agree with one post that said helmets can not prevent concussions but I believe now that the quality of the helmet can play a part in preventing such an injury.
    The highlighted statement is what few folks are willing to do. I have talked to numerous parents after their kid has had a concussion, and few will acknowledge that this needs to be done. The helmets that have the black EPS (expanded polystyrene) are designed to absorb an impact and displace energy. However, in doing so, the impact area deforms, rendering that area of the helmet lining ineffective at dispersing energy in subsequent impacts. This is true of motorcycle, bicycle, skate/snowboard, and hockey helmets made using EPS.

    It is interesting to note (and I say this from direct observation of what has transpired in a Pro practice facility) that many pro teams have gone away from the "Hi-end" EPS type helmet and back to the older style helmets with the basic foam liner.
    Last edited by Hux; 10-10-2011 at 10:36 PM.

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    Re: Concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by fantasticfrito View Post
    There are just as many hockey players getting concussions in that helmet as there are in any other brand.
    I don't have any facts but I can relate one experience from one high school in Minnesota that bought the M11 helmets for boys and girls. After one year the equipment manager threw them in the garbage. He refused to donate them to anyone else because he thought they were dangerous. Not only did the girls and boys have more concussions than previous years (which could have been an anomaly), the helmets had a tendency to fall apart after big checks in the boys games. Some of the boys were frustrated because they went back to the bench with a damaged helmet and missed shifts while they fixed the helmet. I don't know if others had the same experience but that was one high school's story.
    Last edited by SlewFoot; 10-10-2011 at 11:03 PM.

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    Re: Concussions

    Here's chapter 2...Peter Mansbridge again on tonight's "The National" giving more major and expensive airtime to the topic of head injuries in hockey. Check out the star studded panel...Cassie Campbell, Scotty Bowman, Ken Dryden and Elliot Friedman...

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...#id=2151882619

  10. #30
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    Re: Concussions

    And then there's this video, again from tonight's "The National", which focuses more on head injuries that result from fighting. Seems like the NHL is less interested in the players' physical well being than they are in the league's collective revenue stream.

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...#id=2153939718

  11. #31
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    Re: Concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbeard View Post
    And then there's this video, again from tonight's "The National", which focuses more on head injuries that result from fighting. Seems like the NHL is less interested in the players' physical well being than they are in the league's collective revenue stream.

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...#id=2153939718
    If the NHL was so concerned about the players welfare they would do away with the instigator rule. By just showing this video without the lead up is wrong and irresponsible. Beagle went after Asham's diminutive team mate Letang minutes before and roughed him up. Asham takes exception and squares off with Beagle and in all liklihood deters Beagle from doing anything like that again. Let the players police themselves and the cheap shots, headshots and disrespect will quickly become a thing of the past. IMHO
    Last edited by 5 4 Fighting; 10-15-2011 at 10:12 AM. Reason: spell chick

  12. #32
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    Re: Concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by 5 4 Fighting View Post
    If the NHL was so concerned about the players welfare they would do away with the instigator rule. By just showing this video without the lead up is wrong and irresponsible. Beagle went after Asham's diminutive team mate Letang minutes before and roughed him up. Asham takes exception and squares off with Beagle and in all liklihood deters Beagle from doing anything like that again. Let the players police themselves and the cheap shots, headshots and disrespect will quickly become a thing of the past. IMHO
    I don't think that they did the topic (ie: head injuries and the resulting brain trauma) complete justice in this segment in that by allowing their focus to drift to the taunting aspect of this incident they risked confusing their audience and possibly decreasing the impact of the point of the piece. This was probably not the ideal fight clip to add to the segment but since it was recent and was creating a stir, it was "convenient".

    That having been said a punch to the head is a punch to the head regardless of whether or not anyone thinks the recipient deserved it. They should have focused solely on that and ignored the peripheral issues or any circumstances that lead to the (any) fight. So, in that regard they did eventually make their point although in a circuitous and needlessly watered down fashion. Then again, maybe something was lost on me.
    Last edited by Blackbeard; 10-15-2011 at 08:27 PM.

  13. #33
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    Re: Concussions

    ...and then there is this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1fbs6uoWuE

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    Re: Concussions

    Interesting video! Unfortunately, there's also a lot of truth in what they have to say.

  15. #35
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    Re: Concussions

    ...coming from a fella that oughta know.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg_2h...layer_embedded

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    Re: Concussions

    The most common injury in Women's Hockey? According to this article it is...

    http://www.2nationsfemalehockeyleagu...le-Hockey.html

  17. #37
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    Re: Concussions

    Obviously an extreme example as pertains to the college game, but an eye opener nonetheless when it comes to severity of potential trauma via contact to the head and concussions...creating a clear need for strict enforcement of rules aimed at eliminating dangerous infractions involving players heads...in the NCAA.

    http://www.twincities.com/wild/ci_19...kjZVcA8A.email

    http://www.startribune.com/opinion/e...135133228.html
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  18. #38
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    Re: Concussions

    The NHL is not convinced that there is a link between hockey and CTE.

    "There isn't a lot of data, and the experts who we talked to, who consult with us, think that it's way premature to be drawing any conclusions at this point," NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman said. "Because we're not sure that any, based on the data we have available, is valid."
    Translated -- Our financial analysts tell us that if we take steps to reduce fighting it could negatively effect our bottom line, and hey, enforcers are a dime a dozen.
    "... And lose, and start again at your beginnings
    And never breathe a word about your loss;" -- Rudyard Kipling

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    Re: Concussions

    I find some irony in the lyrics of the "State of Hockey" anthem...as it references fighting twice and of course the line "The day they try to take this game is the day the gloves come off".

  20. #40
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    Re: Concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by 5 4 Fighting View Post
    I find some irony in the lyrics of the "State of Hockey" anthem...as it references fighting twice and of course the line "The day they try to take this game is the day the gloves come off".
    As the anthem used by the local NHL franchise Wild, the lyrics actually seem pretty consistent with the philosophy of both the Wild and the NHL, as well as most other NHL organizations I guess. Not to be confused with amateur hockey in Minnesota. IMO, the Wild shouldn't be implying...even in subtle fashion a sort of proprietary association with the "State of Hockey" moniker. A moniker some find inappropriate. Anyway, "The State of Hockey" title I believe was in common use long before the Wild arrived and was originally...and has always been based on the fairly widespread participation and love of the sport in youth / amateur and rec hockey circles. Let's hope there is no similar irony present in local non professional hockey at all levels and player protection from serious injury and well being is a priority.

    BTW...the comments from Bettman I find ridiculous but not at all surprising. Not unlike his previous bogus claims that he's concerned with the effects of the NHL poaching many college hockey underclassmen and wanted to reach some type of arrangement to benefit NCAA division I hockey programs by some method of limiting that poaching, or attempting to regulate it in some way. Not much "iron" and small conviction in his statements on that front. His job and sole priority is the bottom line of the NHL so I believe you can disregard the credibility of some of his commentary on topics like CTE and the poaching issue. I understand Bettman does what he's paid to do...has to do.

    Apologies for wandering over to the soapbox.
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