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  • Re: Nice Planet 2011

    Originally posted by WeWantMore View Post
    Does it though? I would imagine there would be loads of empirical evidence to back this up.
    Right when this all blew up, I read an article in which one of the authors of the law was quoted as saying that he is unhappy with how the law has been used by the legal system to allow people to go after others in its name because they believe those people may have been dangerous. I call that vigilanteism. You call it whatever you want.

    I have also read that one of the authors of the law believes that when Zimmerman failed to heed the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin, that should eliminate Stand Your Ground as a defense, although I'm not sure that they are actually planning to use it as a primary defense.

    It also, of course, leaves the question of whether the operators truly was "advising" Zimmerman, but it seems to me that if you call 911, you might consider the things they tell you to be advice.
    Last edited by duper; 04-13-2012, 08:52 PM.

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    • Originally posted by duper View Post
      Right when this all blew up, I read an article in which one of the authors of the law was quoted as saying that he is unhappy with how the law has been used by the legal system to allow people to go after others in its name because they believe those people may have been dangerous. I call that vigilanteism. You call it whatever you want.
      Great. But you said that the law has encouraged vigilanteism. I'm saying, shouldn't you then be able to point to stats, facts, data (not anecdotes) that show that vigilanteism has, you know, increased, since passage of the law? Not just in Florida, but in the other states with such laws as well?

      Personally, I'm pretty ambivalent on stand your ground laws. We don't have them where I live, and I definitely don't feel like we need them. So I'm totally open to being persuaded they are bad. I just think those arguing against them have to come up with a heck of a lot better argument than this case, where I don't believe stand your ground was even a factor, or general statements about what could happen. Let's see some data on what actually did.

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      • Re: Nice Planet 2011

        Originally posted by WeWantMore View Post
        Great. But you said that the law has encouraged vigilanteism. I'm saying, shouldn't you then be able to point to stats, facts, data (not anecdotes) that show that vigilanteism has, you know, increased, since passage of the law? Not just in Florida, but in the other states with such laws as well?

        Personally, I'm pretty ambivalent on stand your ground laws. We don't have them where I live, and I definitely don't feel like we need them. So I'm totally open to being persuaded they are bad. I just think those arguing against them have to come up with a heck of a lot better argument than this case, where I don't believe stand your ground was even a factor, or general statements about what could happen. Let's see some data on what actually did.
        Yeah, I don't care enough to look anything up. It could be that the person who gave that interview was lying about the law being used contrary to its intention. I'm open to that. I wouldn't really call that an anecdote, though. I would call it someone who is integrally involved in the issue giving a pretty well-informed opinion. Again, you evidently see it differently.

        And what I think I said was that it encourages vigilanteism in the form of encouraging people to stalk other people (who would then not be charged because of the law). Now, please tell me what data I should be looking up that will show the motivations of people who were not charged with crimes. Of course, I still won't look it up, but...

        It is hard for me to understand how anyone can not automatically see the vigilante problems that these laws must encourage. Maybe I'm wrong, I certainly have been before, but I doubt it this time.

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        • Originally posted by duper View Post
          Yeah, I don't care enough to look anything up.
          ... And there we go.

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          • Re: Nice Planet 2011

            NPR had a good program on how the law had developed. They interviewed one of the guys who authored the law and who felt the law was being Ba5tardized, its intent was not what it had become, etc. It was in the last week or so. I am too lazy to look up a link but it was an interesting show.

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            • Re: Nice Planet 2011

              Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
              NPR had a good program on how the law had developed. They interviewed one of the guys who authored the law and who felt the law was being Ba5tardized, its intent was not what it had become, etc. It was in the last week or so. I am too lazy to look up a link but it was an interesting show.
              Oh my God. You mean I might not have imagined that? GASP!!!! I certainly hope you can provide wewantmore with rock-solid proof.

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              • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                Originally posted by duper View Post
                Oh my God. You mean I might not have imagined that? GASP!!!! I certainly hope you can provide wewantmore with rock-solid proof.
                Haha, here you go again. Please.

                I never said you were imagining anything. I did say that I would prefer to rely on actual facts in making determinations about the law.

                You on the other hand said the problems on the law were automatically obvious and had no need for pesky facts or statistics. Clearly, there's no way I'm going to persuade you otherwise, and that's fine, I'll just stop trying to discuss it with you. Something, I'm sure, you'll take as no great loss.

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                • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                  As for what the authors of the law have been saying, there's a lot of statements like this:

                  "He has no protection under my law," former Sen. Durell Peaden told the newspaper
                  Which, come to think of it, is what started this conversation. I don't think Stand Your Ground laws protect conduct like Zimmerman. Using this killing to go after them seems misguided, when it sure looks like either a case of murder or one of traditional self-defense, no SYG necessary.

                  Now, if a judge comes back in the next few weeks and says, actually it does protect him, then I'll agree, yeah, the law is screwed up. 'Til then, like I've been saying, I'll withhold judgment.

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                  • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                    Originally posted by WeWantMore View Post
                    You on the other hand said ... no need for pesky facts or statistics.
                    I certainly didn't say this. I said that I will take at face value that the writer of the law has followed those pesky facts and statistics, and therefore has some idea what he is talking about when he talks about the unintended consequences. And I apologize if those consequences that are obvious to me aren't obvious to you.

                    I believe that when the guy says that the law has been used to defend people it shouldn't, that is true. If you choose to believe that he is lying, that's fine. But you will NOT admit you were wrong about this under any future circumstances. Of that I am positive.

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                    • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                      Unarmed Ex-Marine Shot by Police

                      I don't understand why some people are allowed to be cops.
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                      • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                        Originally posted by Spartanforlife4 View Post
                        No such thing.
                        Michigan Tech Huskies Pep Band: There's No Use Trying To Talk. No Human Sound Can Stand Up To This. Loud Enough To Knock You Down.

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                        • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                          http://m.gawker.com/5902729/police-o...homeowners-dog

                          Guilty of being a dog near a cop. Punishable by death.
                          If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

                          BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


                          At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

                          Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

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                          • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                            Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
                            http://m.gawker.com/5902729/police-o...homeowners-dog

                            Guilty of being a dog near a cop. Punishable by death.
                            Hey, under the "stand your ground" law, if the officer felt in imminent danger of a mortal threat, the shooting was justified, no?
                            "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

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                            "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

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                            • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                              I - LITERALLY AND TRUTHFULLY - facepalmed about twenty consecutive times at my desk after reading this. Specifically the fact that they were black and she stole a WHITE baby to present to her fiancee.

                              Stuff like this is why I don't want children. Society has gone waaaaaaaay too ga-ga over having/obtaining/protecting them.
                              Michigan Tech Huskies Pep Band: There's No Use Trying To Talk. No Human Sound Can Stand Up To This. Loud Enough To Knock You Down.

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                              • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                                Originally posted by Twitch Boy View Post
                                I - LITERALLY AND TRUTHFULLY - facepalmed about twenty consecutive times at my desk after reading this. Specifically the fact that they were black and she stole a WHITE baby to present to her fiancee.

                                Stuff like this is why I don't want children. Society has gone waaaaaaaay too ga-ga over having/obtaining/protecting them.
                                Juice this crazy b*tch. And I mean right now.
                                2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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