Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I would think that Penn State would fit well into the CHA. That would get them up to 6 teams, enough for an autobid (which would probably go to Mercyhurst anyway, but that's beside the point). With the ECAC, it's just about a perfect mirror of the men's league, which is why it's nice as is.

Plus, you're never going to separate the ivies. They'll break off and form their own hockey conference before they ever go to different leagues.

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

EDIT: This thread should focus on Penn State. OSU's situation should be a side issue, at most. PSU does have incentives to consider the CHA. Playing as an independent for a time might also be an option. I would hope the conversation would move in that direction.

I disagree, which is why I titled the thread Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey. I want us to discuss all the implications of PSU starting a women’s DI program. League realignment is a major part of that impact. Whether it is OSU joining the CHA with PSU, the forming of a women’s Big Ten Hockey Conference (WBTHC), or other things I haven't thought.

Joining the CHA along with PSU would give OSU a much more realistic chance to build a winning program, win league regular season and tournament titles and make the NCAA tournament. The same is true for the other WCHA teams, but OSU is the one best located to join the CHA.

Or maybe the Big Ten forms a WBTHC with the four women’s programs. If so, do they play in a 4 team league without an autobid? Would they need an autobid? Or would they invite two other teams to join to reach the NCAA 6 team minimum for an autobid? If so what teams would they invite? Would those teams join a WBTHC? Or as mentioned already, would they try and persuade Michigan and Michigan State (or other Big Ten schools) to start women’s programs?

Sean

[ARM]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Joining the CHA along with PSU would give OSU a much more realistic chance to build a winning program, win league regular season and tournament titles and make the NCAA tournament.

That's not why teams form leagues. They do so in the hopes of finding good competition that they can promote to fans and student athletes. Today, the CHA has one program that would be attractive to Penn St. and Ohio St. -- Syracuse. Mercyhurst is recognizable only to the sport's insiders. If Penn St. had an open invite to join any existing conference, I'm sure that their first pick wouldn't be the CHA.

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

This is a poor analogy. Cornell and Harvard have long and deep ties to the Ivy League in all sports and as the Ivy League sponsors hockey it is highly unlikely that they could just up and leave the Ivy League in just women�s hockey. Ohio State, on the other hand, is only tied to the WCHA in women�s hockey.

Sean

You're misreading my posts. Of course Cornell and Harvard would never leave the Ivy League in any sport, although I didn't suggest that. But I'm sure we agree that they also will never leave ECAC Women's Hockey for the CHA.

If I really have to spell it out: I'm not claiming the situations are the identical. I'm simply asking people to wake up. If you want to put it in rhetorical terms, I'm exaggerating to make a point. The idea that Cornell or Harvard would join the CHA is indeed ludicrous. The status quo is infinitely more attractive than the potential shift. For Ohio State, it's merely a bad deal -- IMHO. And if I'm right, that move isn't happening either.

Could I be persuaded to change my mind? Maybe. But anyone wanting a school to consider changing conferences has the burden of production. Tell me why moving is a good deal for my school. You'd still have a high mountain to climb, but at least there would be something to talk about.

Too often in realignment conversations outsiders move schools around like chess pieces, barely giving a passing thought to what's in the self-interest of the target school. It's a naive approach, doomed to failure.

Note that doing something for the benefit of the larger community is by no means out of the question. But the deal should be at least break even for the school on the receiving end of the sales pitch.

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I disagree, which is why I titled the thread Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey. I want us to discuss all the implications of PSU starting a women’s DI program. League realignment is a major part of that impact. Whether it is OSU joining the CHA with PSU, the forming of a women’s Big Ten Hockey Conference (WBTHC), or other things I haven't thought.

Fair enough. I felt like I was hijacking the thread. I'll stop feeling guilty.

[dave1381]

Even if you don't like the analogy, the overall point remains. Why bust up a successful 8-team league when the sport has other less prosperous conferences that are for some reason viewed as untouchable. Given the current number of D-I teams, the ECAC seems to be too large. Why don't Clarkson and St. Lawrence leave? They could have rivalries with Syracuse and Niagara. Or Union -- they are hardly flourishing in their current arrangement. Obviously none of these schools are obligated to make a move if they like where they are; by the same logic, neither is tOSU.

Well I'm not saying OSU is obligated to move. My initial question was, if OSU considered the move then, and they backed out when Findlay went under, why not consider it now? Perfectly reasonable question.

The best answer was, OSU now has an 11-year history in the WCHA as opposed to a 4-year history, and the conference now has a longer track record of NCAA titles. Moreover, the WCHA has firmly established itself as the best conference top-to-bottom and widened the gap with other leagues, and we couldn't have perfectly forecasted all this success in 2003.

As for the complaint, "why aren't we asking the same questions of ECAC schools?" the answers are 1) they didn't consider the move in 2003 like OSU, 2) ECAC certainly likes having the same members across gender, 3) the NY state schools do have schools nearby within the conference whereas OSU has no one nearby, which all else equal is a reason to consider a move.

Given the changing landscape of college sports, where TCU is in the Big EAST, the Big 10 has 12 and Big 12 has 10, OSU's membership in the WCHA makes more sense than ever before.

[Skate79]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I don't see the ECAC or Hockey East absorbing Penn State into their respective conferences for all the reasons stated in this thread. Doesn't make sense especially when you consider travel and the fact that PSU has no men's teams in either conference.

I will be curious to see who PSU schedules outside of whatever conference they join. While the CHA makes sense, I would think Penn State's administration would find OSU, Minnesota and Wisconsin far more appealing in terms of hockey rivalries than Niagara, Robert Morris or Wayne State. There is familiarity there because of the football and basketball programs and they'll need that as they build a fan base for the hockey team.

[Hux]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I don't see the ECAC or Hockey East absorbing Penn State into their respective conferences for all the reasons stated in this thread. Doesn't make sense especially when you consider travel and the fact that PSU has no men's teams in either conference.

I will be curious to see who PSU schedules outside of whatever conference they join. While the CHA makes sense, I would think Penn State's administration would find OSU, Minnesota and Wisconsin far more appealing in terms of hockey rivalries than Niagara, Robert Morris or Wayne State. There is familiarity there because of the football and basketball programs and they'll need that as they build a fan base for the hockey team.

They already have a pretty solid hockey fan base, though less so for their women's program. I think it is pretty much a no brainer that they will want to schedule the teams you mentioned, however I expect it will take a few seasons before we see the full lot scheduling Penn State thanks to RPI conerns and the like. (Though as Wisco and Minny have shown by scheduling Union, that may not be all that big a concern).

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

They already have a pretty solid hockey fan base, though less so for their women's program. I think it is pretty much a no brainer that they will want to schedule the teams you mentioned, however I expect it will take a few seasons before we see the full lot scheduling Penn State thanks to RPI conerns and the like. (Though as Wisco and Minny have shown by scheduling Union, that may not be all that big a concern).

Why would we be concerned about Penn State?

[ARM]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

(Though as Wisco and Minny have shown by scheduling Union, that may not be all that big a concern).

Minnesota has never played Union. As a conference opponent in other sports, I'd think that there would be more incentive to schedule Penn St, even on their way up. I remember that UND had to play D-I for two season before they were allowed to join the WCHA, but Minnesota did play 1 series with them in their second year.

[Hux]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Minnesota has never played Union. As a conference opponent in other sports, I'd think that there would be more incentive to schedule Penn St, even on their way up. I remember that UND had to play D-I for two season before they were allowed to join the WCHA, but Minnesota did play 1 series with them in their second year.

Right, they played Clarkson at the start of the season.

[LtPowers]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

While the CHA makes sense, I would think Penn State's administration would find OSU, Minnesota and Wisconsin far more appealing in terms of hockey rivalries than Niagara, Robert Morris or Wayne State.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't quickly discount Penn State's interest in in-state rivalries with 'Hurst and RoMo.


Powers &8^]

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

The last few posts have contained a number of good insights. Combine them, and you get a fairly decent road map for PSU to follow in the early years.

Scheduling
First, as ARM notes, North Dakota played an independent schedule for their first two seasons. Penn State would be well advised to do the same. Certainly independent scheduling isn't a foreign concept to the Nittany Lions.

Beyond being wise, it may be one of the few viable choices. As Skate79 argues, PSU isn't likely to be admitted to Hockey East or the ECAC. Joining the WCHA as brand new program would likely be an 0-28 suicide mission. The CHA might be less overwhelming. But at this point, it's not at all clear that's in the best interests of either side. (my previous post.)

In building an independent schedule, I completely agree with Lt. Powers that the two in-state rivals are a great place to start. Mercyhurst and Robert Morris should have permanent places on the PSU schedule, IMHO. Further IMHO, the Buckeyes and the Nittany Lions should begin an annual series at the earliest possible time.

Like Skate79 and Hux, I also believe that match-ups with Minnesota and Wisconsin would serve Penn State's interests well. On a Men's Hockey thread, it was suggested that the new PSU teams would do well to play some early games in the Boston area. I'll sign on to that thought. Why not make inquiries with each of the four Beanpot schools? You'd probably get a nibble or two. Likely all would be interested; the stumbling block would be availability.

That's a half season worth of games right there. For the remainder, I would first seek out other fledging programs, with Syracase at the top of the list. Finally, programs that have struggled a bit lately would provide some needed balance. Penn State's brand name would open some of those doors.

Conference Affiliation
It will be a couple years before PSU hits the ice, IIRC. Add couple more seasons as an independent, and we've got 4 years of breathing room on the question. Perhaps the Big Ten's plans, or lack thereof, will have crystallized at that point. If the Spartans and Wolverines really go D-1 in Women's Hockey, a Women's BTHC could be at hand.

Personally, I'm not sold on the idea of a six team BTHC -- for either gender. But there have been appealing rumors that Illinois and Indiana are considering D-1 Hockey. That may be mere wishful thinking. But if it all comes to fruition, and there actually are 8 BT teams playing Women's D-1, the BTHC happens. In other words, conference affiliation becomes a non-issue for PSU.

But what if the other BT schools stay at the club level? Selfishly, I would like to see PSU join the Women's WCHA. It's a great, great league, and all 4 BT teams would be together in the same conference. Both factors would be attractive incentives for Penn State. On the WCHA's side, adding a ninth team would create scheduling complications. Giving up the tidy 8 team schedule would be difficult for some to accept. But the sacrifice would probably be worth it to gain a school of Penn State's stature.

Naturally if a Women's BTHC is a long way off, the CHA will want to make a pitch for PSU. If the Nittany Lions were truly available for the indefinite future, as opposed to just passing through, they'd be a great catch. If that transpired, I imagine OSU would get a renewed inquiry, and we'd at least have to listen. The CHA, as currently constituted, isn't an attractive option compared to the WCHA. But add Penn State, and say Notre Dame, and maybe you have something that starts looking like the equivalent of the Men's CCHA. Personally I'd want to OSU to remain in the Women's WCHA, with the creation of the BTHC as the only exception. But it must be conceded that Penn State's decision will have quite an impact on the relevant incentives.

Sean, was this the kind of post you had in mind?

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Sean, was this the kind of post you had in mind?

Yes, pgb (if I may call you that), it is exactly the kind of post I had in mind. I'm also happy to see that you're willing to consider the idea of an enhanced CHA with PSU and OSU (and maybe other schools) as members.

As for your comments, first scheduling. Penn State plans to start playing in 2012-13, only one season from now. That makes joining a conference or planning an independent schedule this summer a priority. On the men’s side Penn State has already indicated that will be an independent for the first two seasons and then likely join a league. For what I consider obvious reasons this will likely be the newly formed BTHC. On the women’s side, with no WBTHC likely on the horizon, I think that they may wish to join a league immediately, if it makes sense and is possible.

If they do remain an independent for a few seasons it most likely they will end up scheduling far more eastern then western teams. The non-Ivy ECAC (12 nc games), Hockey East (13 nc games), and CHA (18 nc games) teams could all accommodate PSU much more easily than the WCHA (6 nc games) and Ivy (7 nc games) teams. I also think it unlikely for PSU to have annual series with any or all of the other Big Ten schools because of the limited nc games available for scheduling. With an independent schedule I see Penn State trying to work out one or two season schedules with 2 game home-and-home series with Mercyhurst, Robert Morris and Syracuse, along with single two game series with Ohio State, Wisconsin and Minnesota for 18 games. The other 16 games could be filled out with two game series with 4 Hockey East and 4 ECAC teams.

Second, conference affiliation. With PSU starting play in 2012-13 and it now possible that the men’s BTHC will begin play in 2013-14 (PSU has stated that the new arena will open a year earlier than originally expected) it is possible that they will also want the women’s team in a league by 2013-14. That would only give us two seasons, but this is just my opinion.

Since starting this thread I have considered the idea of Penn State joining the WCHA and had much the same thoughts you had about it. I've been busy and I'm glad that you posted these thoughts.

I've also considered a 6 team WBTHC, with all Big Ten schools or with 'associate members'. However, I think this is unlikely as I don’t see Michigan or Michigan State starting a women’s program anytime soon. I also think any benefits of joining a WBTHC as an associate member would be outweighed by the negatives of such a move.

I have also thought about PSU joining Hockey East and I would like to think that the league would be open to the idea. Even though I think it would ultimately be unlikely for the basic reasons I have already mentioned, I think it would be a positive move for the league in many respects. I also think it would be a positive for Penn State in many respects, but other than the article I mentioned previously, I have heard nothing about PSU’s plans for the women’s program.

The CHA is a geographic and, at least in the beginning, competitive fit for the program. As I also think a WBTHC is a long way off, I think it would also be a natural home for Penn State.

The one big caveat is if, for some reason, the BTHC is nixed. If the men’s team has no BTHC to join I’m not so sure the men’s program will automatically join the CCHA. Penn State may instead look to the ECAC or Hockey East for both their men’s and women’s programs. In that event, unlikely as it may be, I see both leagues being extremely interest in having PSU join. Besides top level athletics PSU has top level academics which would fit in very well with the ECAC’s emphasis on academics and would enhance Hockey East’s academic standing.

Sean

[Hux]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb and say there will be no BTHC, and that the CHA and Atlantic Hockey will form some sort of new league for both the men and women. (Air Force ends up in the WCHA or CCHA and not in the east)