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Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
Originally posted by Handyman View Post**NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.
Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
"Women for Kavanaugh" consists of 7 men, 6 women. Cool. https://t.co/0gqV0g74Qa
— Tim Hogan (@timjhogan) September 20, 2018
**NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.
Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
.@OrrinHatch just told 3 different women reporters that rape isn't cause for keeping a man off the #SCOTUS for life and I am stunned.
— Victoria Brownworth (@VABVOX) September 17, 2018
....and I am NOT STUNNED!!!!!!!!!**NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.
Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
Originally posted by SJHovey View PostI don't think the Kavanaugh and Ellison thing are the same, primarily because Ellison is not up for appointment to a position. He's up for election, and all of us in Minnesota will get to vote on whether we believe his story or not, or whether it's an important issue for us or not.
However, in terms of the evidence, in Ellison's case the alleged victim has stated Ellison abused her. Furthermore, she has posted a medical record that shows she made that same statement to a doctor some time ago. In terms of "evidence" does this differ markedly from Ford saying Kavanaugh assaulted her, and saying that she told a therapist about it six years ago?
If you ask me personally I think they probably had a very volatile relationship and they provoked the worst in each other. (my parents were like that to often almost violent ends) If the video never comes forward, it will be because that is what the video will show as well. I dont care unless she attacked him with a knife what he is accused of is just terrible. The video is what started this all and until it is released I just dont trust anyone in the case. (both sides have angles)
If Ford had kept her name silent I probably would not have given it much credence. (much like the tape) I have a hard time with anonymous accusations. When she went public that changed for me. Since, for now, she doesnt seem to want anything out of this that tends to lend credence to her credibility in my mind. Something about his denial doesnt play well either in my gut. I know a lot of people who used to drink like that, and I know a few that in todays climate would definitely be told they crossed a line. (not as far as what BK is accused of) When you ask them about it their answers tend to sound just like him. Categorical denial of everything with no possibility that maybe he made a mistake. The ones who tended not to do stuff like that, answered more often like how Franken did when he was accused. (that isnt how I remember things ...etc.) His denial is too black and white...he wants us to not only believe he never did this but also that he was never at any party that drunk where stuff like that happened. That just doesnt seem kosher.
Do I know for a fact he did it...nope and if he didnt I will be the first to say I was wrong. Something just doesnt sit right IMHO. I understand others dont see it that way.
edit: I havent had a chance to check the medical record FWIW. I will check the Strib after class."It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
-aparch
"Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
-INCH
Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
-ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post.@OrrinHatch just told 3 different women reporters that rape isn't cause for keeping a man off the #SCOTUS for life and I am stunned.
— Victoria Brownworth (@VABVOX) September 17, 2018
....and I am NOT STUNNED!!!!!!!!!"It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
-aparch
"Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
-INCH
Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
-ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
Originally posted by Handyman View PostNo they arent supposed to feel better but I dont think you can punish both equally either. My girlfriend works with trauma (she also has trauma though different type) so I know the score. Not every bad act causes trauma that is bad enough that the retribution should be to burn the witch in the town square. The retribution should equal the act.
I dont want to mitigate factors based on who the person is, I want to mitigate factors based on what happened which is what you are supposed to do. That is where the girlfriend and I agree. (hell she is more grey about it than I am) I was the one saying Franken should step down and she was vehemently against it. She acknowledges that some or all of the women may have felt he was inappropriate but she doesnt think that the acts warrant the outrage nor could cause the type of trauma the outrage brought about. Mitigating factors are important, knowing the whole story is important in the end. We dont live in a vacuum. That is the point she and I are making.
If every man is guilty they should be punished. I dont think I said otherwise. But I feel that they should be punished differently just like they would be in court. The different acts would be different level of crimes and they should be punished thusly.
You seem to think I dont want justice for the victims. I most certainly do. I have seen first hand what trauma can do and I know how hard it can be to get through. (sadly I have also seen what false accusations can do) This isnt about whether they deserve justice, this is about what that justice is.
And I am going to worry about the men in part because I am a man. How this gets defined and changed is going to change my behavior going forward and define my past behaviors.
Originally posted by SJHovey View PostI think this post asks some important questions. I don't think it necessarily answers those questions, but I'm not sure we have the answers yet.
Do I think something happened between Ford and Kavanaugh? I do. I don't know what. I have a hunch. My hunch is that we had a high school boy attending an all boys school who found himself at a party in mixed company, consumed more alcohol than he was capable of handling, with the assistance of a friend got Ford into a room and he physically groped her. She was undoubtedly was very frightened and probably thought she was about to be raped. He probably thought he was wowing her with his prowess as a lover.
Was his conduct wrong? Absolutely.
But here is a concern I've had for some time. We are moving to a place in society where degrees and context and nuance don't matter in these events. Furthermore, we are moving in the direction that says that because the victim has to live with the trauma of the events for the rest of his or her life, the perpetrator must also receive a life sentence. Finally, there is even a backlash against those who are open to listening to the perpetrator's story or giving the perp a chance at rehabilitation.
I saw that one of the top editors at The New York Review of Books was recently bounced from his job because he had the temerity to publish an essay by a man who had been charged with assaulting one or more women. The media backlash to the publication basically took the form that the perpetrator's voice should not be heard, that the perpetrator has no right to try to address the context of the events or to try to rehabilitate himself.
One of the things that has struck me about the Kavanaugh case is this. No one has even asked the question, "What if Kavanaugh, thirty years ago as a drunken high school student at a party, did physically grope and frighten Ford? Does that automatically disqualify him from this position?"
I mean, probably? But no one has even asked that question. If it disqualifies him from this position, what other positions does it disqualify him from? Too often I think the response to these events, regardless of degree, is burn them at the stake. And they need to stay burned.
The problem with that is twofold. First, I believe that while punishment must be leveled for wrongs, that punishment has to be appropriate both in terms of length and degree. Second, if our response is to tar every perpetrator with the scarlet letter for life, you are going to see events like we see now where the automatic response to a charge is denial, not acknowledgment and contrition. You have to deny, because the consequences are too great if you don't.
That question has been asked in a number of things I have listened to. The thing that disqualifies someone is the lack of remorse and lying about it so it will go away. I am not sure how one decides what the punishment is. The perp moves on. The woman for the most part carries that with her the rest of her life. We might not be able to find a good answer to it but that is easier to accept than hearing we should get over ourselves because the guy has moved on and become successful at X.
Originally posted by Rover View PostBecause he's not being honest about it if it happened. If she's credible then he's lying. They can't both be telling the truth. I did a lot of boozing in my day, but I would have remembered something like this. Its also a bit odd to get blackout drunk at age 17 or whatever he was at the time.
Originally posted by Handyman View PostI think if she testified and was credible the pressure on enough senators to vote no would be pretty high. Even frauds like Collins and Murkowski would feel the heat. Plus it has never looked good when a bunch of pasty old white dudes brow beat a woman for the world to see.
As it is if she doesnt they can just ignore her.
Originally posted by The Sicatoka View PostMy fear is that we are migrating from "innocent until proven guilty" to "guilty until proven innocent"; but, it's worse, as it seems in a #MeToo world it's "guilty upon accusation", with certain exceptions*.
*See: MN AG candidate Ellison
Originally posted by sagard View PostThe most pragmatic answer seems to be that there are a bunch of cases coming next session that they want to win. Without Kav on board 4/4 goes back to lower court decision.
The rush doesn't make sense for any other reason to me because they would still seat a conservative even losing control of the senate which is unlikely.
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
And it looks like she may actually go forward: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ford...ry?id=57967972Go Gophers!
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post.@OrrinHatch just told 3 different women reporters that rape isn't cause for keeping a man off the #SCOTUS for life and I am stunned.
— Victoria Brownworth (@VABVOX) September 17, 2018
....and I am NOT STUNNED!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post"Even if Kavanaugh did try to rape her, he has my vote!"
— Mrs. Betty Bowers (@BettyBowers) September 19, 2018
-- Sen. Orrin Hatch
"Even if Trump did try to rape her, he has my vote!"
-- Jerry Fallwell, Jr.
NOTE TO WOMEN: Republicans don't mind if someone tries to rape you; they just mind if you don't carry his baby to term. pic.***********/JgX3dMhJEp
What kind of cheese are you planning to put on top?
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
Originally posted by SJHovey View PostI think an "attempted forcible gang rape" is a big stretch based upon her letter to Feinstein. As I recall, she told Feinstein that Kavanaugh sort of pushed her into this room and the friend followed. The friend sat in another part of the room, alternating between "go for it" and "stop". On one, or maybe two instances, he ran over and jumped on top of Kavanaugh, including an instance where Kavanaugh was knocked off of Ford, apparently letting her leave the room.What kind of cheese are you planning to put on top?
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post"Women for Kavanaugh" consists of 7 men, 6 women. Cool. https://t.co/0gqV0g74Qa
— Tim Hogan (@timjhogan) September 20, 2018
What kind of cheese are you planning to put on top?
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
Originally posted by The Sicatoka View PostMy fear is that we are migrating from "innocent until proven guilty" to "guilty until proven innocent"; but, it's worse, as it seems in a #MeToo world it's "guilty upon accusation", with certain exceptions*.
*See: MN AG candidate Ellison
The standard for the Supreme Court isn’t “well, he didn’t actually rape anyone. *shrug*”Code:As of 9/21/10: As of 9/13/10: College Hockey 6 College Football 0 BTHC 4 WCHA FC: 1
Originally posted by SanTropezMay your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.Originally posted by bigblue_dlI don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..Originally posted by KeplerWhen the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
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Originally posted by rufus View PostWhere's the 65 women who said they went to school with him at the all boys prep school?CCT '77 & '78
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”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
- Benjamin Franklin
Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).
I want to live forever. So far, so good.
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Re: Scotus 11: Will Thomas Ever Speak Again?
Alaska governor calls on Murkowski to oppose Kavanaugh https://t.co/8NhiCaehNi pic.***********/UcC0JDUMgB
— The Hill (@thehill) September 20, 2018
"It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
-aparch
"Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
-INCH
Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
-ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007
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