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Thread: Report: LIU-Brooklyn adding D-I women's hockey for 2019-20

  1. #21
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    Re: Report: LIU-Brooklyn adding D-I women's hockey for 2019-20

    Quote Originally Posted by Lindsay View Post
    Yes whimsical, but itís unfortunate to see the CHA potentially lose another team...So the prospect of losing Lindenwood and going down to five teams is disappointing.
    Agreed. In fact, if it knocked the CHA down to five, I'd be opposed to adding Lindenwoood. We can afford to be better citizens than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ne7minder View Post
    I made a joke of OSU joining CHA and got toasted for it because someone assumed I was serious. It would be a great move for OSU but not so good for the quality of opponent in the WCHA. From a logistics stand point it makes sense but it is not what my heart wants...
    Hope I wasn't the toaster.

    But I sincerely disagree that it "would be a great move for OSU." IMHO, the OSU program would be trading down in every respect except travel cost. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we'd be joining a league that's "bad" in any way. But we would be taking a step backward in terms of excellence.

    Many have argued the following:

    1. The CHA Autobid is an "easier path" to the NCAA tournament; and that
    2. This factor is intoxicatingly attractive.

    I've always rejected this line of reasoning. Why sneak into the tournament to grab a participation ribbon? Competing in the strongest possible league is the best way to prepare for the tournament. Once in the tournament, I want the team to be capable of doing some damage, like the 2017-18 Buckeyes did. Seeking an easier path undercuts that approach. Further, knowledgeable recruits would see right through such a ruse. Recruiting would likely suffer, particularly in the Upper Midwest.

    To finish on a positive note, I'm glad your heart wants us to stay.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZedLeppelin View Post
    If nothing happens until 2019-20, and the conferences do what seems like the obvious choice, the CHA can replace Lindenwood with LIU-Brooklyn and remain at six teams, and the WCHA can add Lindenwood (and keep Ohio State) and be at eight teams - everybody wins.
    This.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgb-ohio View Post
    Agreed. In fact, if it knocked the CHA down to five, I'd be opposed to adding Lindenwoood. We can afford to be better citizens than that.

    Hope I wasn't the toaster.

    But I sincerely disagree that it "would be a great move for OSU." IMHO, the OSU program would be trading down in every respect except travel cost. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we'd be joining a league that's "bad" in any way. But we would be taking a step backward in terms of excellence.

    Many have argued the following:

    1. The CHA Autobid is an "easier path" to the NCAA tournament; and that
    2. This factor is intoxicatingly attractive.

    I've always rejected this line of reasoning. Why sneak into the tournament to grab a participation ribbon? Competing in the strongest possible league is the best way to prepare for the tournament. Once in the tournament, I want the team to be capable of doing some damage, like the 2017-18 Buckeyes did. Seeking an easier path undercuts that approach. Further, knowledgeable recruits would see right through such a ruse. Recruiting would likely suffer, particularly in the Upper Midwest.

    To finish on a positive note, I'm glad your heart wants us to stay.

    This.
    You do realize OSU lost to half the CHA this year right?

    Big picture, CHA will adapt to whatever comes their way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindsay View Post
    You do realize OSU lost to half the CHA this year right?

    Big picture, CHA will adapt to whatever comes their way.
    Ya, OSU is certainly not "too good" for the CHA. The CHA would be a great place for them to be.

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    Re: Report: LIU-Brooklyn adding D-I women's hockey for 2019-20

    Quote Originally Posted by Lindsay View Post
    You do realize OSU lost to half the CHA this year right?

    Big picture, CHA will adapt to whatever comes their way.
    Completely familiar with the record.

    I was addressing the argument that's been made most frequently over the years. (as to why OSU should move) But yes. Winning a CHA Title isn't nearly as easy as many have argued. I've personally made that point multiple times over the years.

    Please understand, it's just not possible to cover every relevant point in a single post -- although I'm often guilty of trying. In this case I was actually trying to avoid being comprehensive, because I've addressed this subject so many times over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by shelfit View Post
    Ya, OSU is certainly not "too good" for the CHA. The CHA would be a great place for them to be.
    Not a fan of realignment. As far as I'm concerned, those who want to justify a move bear the burden of proof. And when it comes to changing conferences, I set the bar high.

    Sure, the CHA is a good league. And suggesting that OSU join it isn't offensive. But if we like the league we're in and the league continues to want us, then others ought to respect that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shelfit View Post
    Ya, OSU is certainly not "too good" for the CHA. The CHA would be a great place for them to be.
    I looked at OSUís record against CHA teams last year and they were 5 and 3. Not stellar but good.

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    Re: Report: LIU-Brooklyn adding D-I women's hockey for 2019-20

    Quote Originally Posted by Puckdrop14 View Post
    I looked at OSU’s record against CHA teams last year and they were 5 and 3. Not stellar but good.
    Good by whose standards?

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    Re: Report: LIU-Brooklyn adding D-I women's hockey for 2019-20

    A 625 winning percentage is good by my standards but not great. If I recall, you were 0 and 1 against OSU which is not good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puckdrop14 View Post
    A 625 winning percentage is good by my standards but not great. If I recall, you were 0 and 1 against OSU which is not good.
    It most certainly is not, but no one is saying that it was lol

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    Re: Report: LIU-Brooklyn adding D-I women's hockey for 2019-20

    Quote Originally Posted by ne7minder View Post
    It would be a great move for OSU but not so good for the quality of opponent in the WCHA.
    I think you've got that backwards. A pretty significant chunk of their roster isn't playing for OSU if they're not in the WCHA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaizeRage View Post
    I think you've got that backwards. A pretty significant chunk of their roster isn't playing for OSU if they're not in the WCHA.
    Really? You think a bunch more of the players would transfer out? Don't you think they'd love a legitimate chance at winning a conference championship and getting an AQ to the national tournament? The odds of them achieving both of those goals are way higher in the CHA. In my opinion they will never win the WCHA tournament which means they would always have to rely on the chance of getting an at-large bid. That significantly reduces their odds of getting into the national tournament on a consistent basis. Clarkson has proven that you DO NOT need to play in the WCHA during the regular season in order to prepare to win a National Championship.

    Being in the strongest conference doesn't necessarily help you get to the national tournament. The same thing holds true in D3 hockey. It's been argued for years that the NESCAC is the strongest D3 conference therefore it's better to play there than any other conference to make it to the D3 national tournament, but Middlebury is still the only team in that conference that consistently makes it to the D3 national tournament. Middlebury in the NESCAC is comparable to Wisconsin or Minnesota in the WCHA.
    Last edited by shelfit; 06-06-2018 at 03:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shelfit View Post
    Really? You think a bunch more of the players would transfer out? Don't you think they'd love a legitimate chance at winning a conference championship and getting an AQ to the national tournament? The odds of them achieving both of those goals are way higher in the CHA. In my opinion they will never win the WCHA tournament which means they would always have to rely on the chance of getting an at-large bid. That significantly reduces their odds of getting into the national tournament on a consistent basis. Clarkson has proven that you DO NOT need to play in the WCHA during the regular season in order to prepare to win a National Championship.

    Being in the strongest conference doesn't necessarily help you get to the national tournament. The same thing holds true in D3 hockey. It's been argued for years that the NESCAC is the strongest D3 conference therefore it's better to play there than any other conference to make it to the D3 national tournament, but Middlebury is still the only team in that conference that consistently makes it to the D3 national tournament. Middlebury in the NESCAC is comparable to Wisconsin or Minnesota in the WCHA.
    True but the CHA is also getting stronger every year and nothing says that it would be a slam dunk for OSU If they moved to the CHA. Last year was a good one for them but it also came when the top echelon teams had their core players in the Olympics. If players leave OSU, it will have nothing to do with the conference they are in.

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    Re: Report: LIU-Brooklyn adding D-I women's hockey for 2019-20

    Quote Originally Posted by MaizeRage View Post
    A pretty significant chunk of their roster isn't playing for OSU if they're not in the WCHA.
    Think about this statement for just a minute and it does make some sense. For Minnesota players on the OSU roster, their parents can see them without any problems twice at Ridder and a number of times with easy commutes to Mankato, St Cloud, and even not too bad to Duluth, Bemidji and Madison. Those players are very familiar with a most all the players on the Minnesota roster as well as many on the other league teams rosters.

    Clarkson has broken through the WCHA stranglehold on national titles but Minnesota and Wisconsin (and to a lesser degree now, UMD) are still the standard bearers for women's college hockey and that is a big deal getting to compete against that.
    Last edited by FiveHoleFrenzy; 06-06-2018 at 10:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveHoleFrenzy View Post
    Think about this statement for just a minute and it does make some sense. For Minnesota players on the OSU roster, their parents can see them without any problems twice at Ridder and a number of times with easy commutes to Mankato, St Cloud, and even not too bad to Duluth, Bemidji and Madison. Those players are very familiar with a most all the players on the Minnesota roster as well as many on the other league teams rosters.

    Clarkson has broken through the WCHA stranglehold on national titles but Minnesota and Wisconsin (and too a lesser degree now, UMD) are still the standard bearers for women's college hockey and that is a big deal getting to compete against that.
    Would OSU not become more attractive for players from Ontario as family could increase the number of games they could attend as Penn, Mercyhurst, Robert Morris, Syracuse and RIT are all within 5-6 hours of the Toronto area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puckdrop14 View Post
    Would OSU not become more attractive for players from Ontario as family could increase the number of games they could attend as Penn, Mercyhurst, Robert Morris, Syracuse and RIT are all within 5-6 hours of the Toronto area?
    Exactly. There are more benefits for OSU joining the CHA than staying in the WCHA. I'd much rather play in the CHA and have much higher odds of making the NCAA tournament vs staying in the WCHA just to play Wisconsin and Minnesota 4 games a year in the regular season. That's definitely not worth it. It's a whole different recruiting conversation when you tell a prospect she has a chance to make it to the NCAA tournament each of her 4 years by playing in the CHA compared to telling her she has the chance to play against and probably lose to Wisconsin and Minnesota 4 times each year for her 4 years of college hockey not to mention a very limited chance of ever making it to the NCAA tournament.

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    Re: Report: LIU-Brooklyn adding D-I women's hockey for 2019-20

    Quote Originally Posted by MaizeRage View Post
    I think you've got that backwards. A pretty significant chunk of their roster isn't playing for OSU if they're not in the WCHA.
    Agreed. And as I read your post, it has nothing to do with "transfers." Recruiting MN and the rest of the Upper Midwest is viable as a WCHA member; but would be much more difficult otherwise. The point is that OSU would miss out on new recruits if we were to leave the WCHA.

    Quote Originally Posted by FiveHoleFrenzy View Post
    Think about this statement for just a minute and it does make some sense. For Minnesota players on the OSU roster, their parents can see them without any problems twice at Ridder and a number of times with easy commutes to Mankato, St Cloud, and even not too bad to Duluth, Bemidji and Madison. Those players are very familiar with a most all the players on the Minnesota roster as well as many on the other league teams rosters.

    Clarkson has broken through the WCHA stranglehold on national titles but Minnesota and Wisconsin (and too a lesser degree now, UMD) are still the standard bearers for women's college hockey and that is a big deal getting to compete against that.
    Appreciate the elaboration, and I agree with it.

    I don't make it to road games much these days, but I can confirm that what you say is real. I've been to Buckeye games at St. Cloud, Mankato & Duluth. In each case Buckeye families were well represented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puckdrop14 View Post
    Would OSU not become more attractive for players from Ontario as family could increase the number of games they could attend as Penn, Mercyhurst, Robert Morris, Syracuse and RIT are all within 5-6 hours of the Toronto area?
    This is an intelligent point. If OSU were to land in the CHA, adjustments in recruiting strategy would be required. No doubt this angle would be at the top of the list.

    But to my ear, this sounds like an opportunity to break even. A hopeful thought that things might not be so bad. My question is this: Why would I want to change conferences for a chance to break even?

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    Re: Report: LIU-Brooklyn adding D-I women's hockey for 2019-20

    This is an interesting conversation but...

    Changing strategies from having a strong recruiting presence in the Mid-West (especially Minnesota) based on conference affiliation to potentially changing to another conference and shifting the primary focus to recruiting in Canada does not seem like a benefit. There are no guarantees that they would make headway with that strategy against Clarkson and the rest of the Ivy League schools, let alone the top Hockey East teams. That seems like a big risk, especially with the current facilities OSU has.

    No way is OSU, as a member of the same power 5 conference as Minnesota and Wisconsin, going to move from the WCHA to the CHA regardless of Penn State being in the CHA. Not gonna happen.

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    Re: Report: LIU-Brooklyn adding D-I women's hockey for 2019-20

    Quote Originally Posted by shelfit View Post
    Exactly. There are more benefits for OSU joining the CHA than staying in the WCHA.
    Nonsense. You have no connection to OSU, and you're just having some fun with house money.

    I'd much rather play in the CHA and have much higher odds of making the NCAA tournament vs staying in the WCHA just to play Wisconsin and Minnesota 4 games a year in the regular season. That's definitely not worth it. It's a whole different recruiting conversation when you tell a prospect she has a chance to make it to the NCAA tournament each of her 4 years by playing in the CHA compared to telling her she has the chance to play against and probably lose to Wisconsin and Minnesota 4 times each year for her 4 years of college hockey not to mention a very limited chance of ever making it to the NCAA tournament.
    While this isn't irrational, it's not the way most athletes think.

    Personally, I never had the ability to be a D-1 Athlete in any sport. Not even close. But I was fortunate enough to participate in several sports beyond the beginner level. In the various Varsity & JV experiences, never once did I have the thought: "Gosh, I wish our team would change leagues so the competition would be easier."

    Granted, strong players sometimes play down as "ringers" in Rec Sports leagues. But frankly I find even that choice hard to understand.

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    Re: Report: LIU-Brooklyn adding D-I women's hockey for 2019-20

    Penn State to the WCHA so it can be with its Big10 Sisters and gets the league to 8. Flies in the face of geography, but the Big10 school would be all together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beaverhockeyfan View Post
    Penn State to the WCHA so it can be with its Big10 Sisters and gets the league to 8. Flies in the face of geography, but the Big10 school would be all together.
    The league canít afford the travel is the messsage I have understood, over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZedLeppelin View Post
    If nothing happens until 2019-20, and the conferences do what seems like the obvious choice, the CHA can replace Lindenwood with LIU-Brooklyn and remain at six teams, and the WCHA can add Lindenwood (and keep Ohio State) and be at eight teams - everybody wins.
    If CHA loses Lindenwood, I do hope LIU-Brooklyn joins the CHA. I donít think they are interchangeable - a brand new program vs Lindenwood, but you make the best of a situation. Like Lindenwood beat 4 out of 5 CHA teams this year and SLU when they ranked, when they were out in California. It will take LIU some time to get to that level. Also, Lindenwood is just part of the history of the league now, you know, and some of us are not good with change, lol.

    But it potentially is what is. For me the hope would be that LIU-Brooklyn joins the league, and quickly finds a way to compete, and stays in the league. For the sake of the growth of college hockey and an auto bid, Iíd welcome them with open arms.

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