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  • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

    Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Faith/Church can be powerfully beneficial
    As can clear, logical, secular humanist thinking.

    All messages that emphasize humility and generosity can be equally fulfilling and inspiring. It's not magic. The variable is whether the person is willing to incorporate those virtues into his worldview. If he's not then Man In Sky is just as likely to fail with him as Read A Book.
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    • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
      As can clear, logical, secular humanist thinking.
      Preach it brotha.

      Seriously - advance a positive, concrete platform and inspire others to follow it.
      Go Gophers!

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      • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

        So much for "progressive" Frank.

        I'm sure joe is just celebrating all over his office/computer room right now.
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        • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

          Originally posted by MissThundercat View Post
          So much for "progressive" Frank.

          I'm sure joe is just celebrating all over his office/computer room right now.
          He's head of the Catholic Church. He's bound by dogma, but can still wiggle things around in other areas. Most aspects that come off as too conservative, he's tied to it by dogma. Dogma, if you talk to schooled Catholics, is the one part of the Church that will never change. He can update other aspects of the Church, so long as it doesn't cross Dogma. When he's accepting of LGBT people in general, he's seen as being ultra-liberal by the Church and its ardent adherents. LGBT parenting and Church sanctified marriage is a different level, something he can't avoid regardless of whatever his personal opinions may be.
          "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

          "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

          "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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          • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

            It's not Church dogma that a family is a man and a woman. That's a social convention. But it also isn't going to change for centuries.

            Holy Mother Church is always about 500 years behind the rest of the West. They finally took their foot off the Jews' throat over Jesus in, like, 1965. Obviously the church bureaucracy isn't going to understand marriage equality -- the West didn't even start to get their heads screwed on straight about that until the 1980s in even the most enlightened countries. We still have a huge number of living people in this country who will literally never get it. It's a software upgrade that is incompatible with their old hardware. Like the racists and sexists of the past, they will die saying "that doesn't look like anything to me." No doubt changes are coming which will similarly be too advanced for you and me. Humanity evolves, but individuals live and die frozen in the mindset of their upbringing.

            As the Senate is a cooling pan, the Vatican is a glacier. It moves s l o w l y, but it does move. Obviously this really sucks for some things (various oppressions, from atheists to gays to women). In other things it's actually pretty good -- the Church has still not embraced the psychotic capitalism of the West (which remember is still less than 200 years old -- it's air to us, but to most of human history it's a passing stomach virus) and continually reminds people of inconvenient facts about Jesus preaching about being kind of the poor and those other "losers." The Church is, in a sense, the only Western institution that is not completely compromised by the 1%. They have a power elite, of course, but it's a different breed of cat.

            I don't expect a Pope, even one as apparently humane as Francis, to turn this 1500-year old aircraft carrier on a dime. It's going to be a long, long arc towards justice and a lot of people will be hurt needlessly in the ensuing period. But it's good to have at least one institution that is targeting human good. Scientific institutions are morally neutral and economic institutions are morally reprehensible. The Church is at least committed to good. Even though most of the people in it are eejits and many of its precepts are the vestigial baggage of the species' lizard brain, it has A Plan, and it's thinking in terms of centuries. Give it time.
            Last edited by Kepler; 06-19-2018, 09:31 AM.
            Cornell University
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            • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

              @Freddygray31: There are more Anglican churchgoers in Muslim Pakistan (500,000) than Scotland (44,280) and Wales (78,000) Dennis Lennox on @SpectatorUSA https://usa.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/...colonial-rift/
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              • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

                Originally posted by joecct View Post
                @Freddygray31: There are more Anglican churchgoers in Muslim Pakistan (500,000) than Scotland (44,280) and Wales (78,000) Dennis Lennox on @SpectatorUSA https://usa.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/...colonial-rift/
                Last edited by Kepler; 06-19-2018, 01:41 PM.
                Cornell University
                National Champion 1967, 1970
                ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
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                • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

                  Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                  He's head of the Catholic Church. He's bound by dogma, but can still wiggle things around in other areas. Most aspects that come off as too conservative, he's tied to it by dogma. Dogma, if you talk to schooled Catholics, is the one part of the Church that will never change. He can update other aspects of the Church, so long as it doesn't cross Dogma. When he's accepting of LGBT people in general, he's seen as being ultra-liberal by the Church and its ardent adherents. LGBT parenting and Church sanctified marriage is a different level, something he can't avoid regardless of whatever his personal opinions may be.
                  Huh? I thought Popes got to make up Dogma as they went along. That's how priests couldn't marry, how they started doing the indulgence thing, made up purgatory and limbo, etc. WHen ever there is a convenient reason for the Dogma to change (keeping property with the church instead of the wife/family, needing $$ for the Basilica, etc) it does. There is no financial gain to change the Dogma re the marriage thing or the gay thing so it doesn't change. Of course financially in the end this shoots them in the foot but...

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                  • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

                    Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
                    Huh? I thought Popes got to make up Dogma as they went along. That's how priests couldn't marry, how they started doing the indulgence thing, made up purgatory and limbo, etc. WHen ever there is a convenient reason for the Dogma to change (keeping property with the church instead of the wife/family, needing $$ for the Basilica, etc) it does. There is no financial gain to change the Dogma re the marriage thing or the gay thing so it doesn't change. Of course financially in the end this shoots them in the foot but...
                    When a Catholic priest dies, the assets of that priest are not handed over to the Church as a matter rule. While many of them do give the monetary assets to the Church, not all do. Some give it to extended family - nieces and nephews, bast-ard children, and so on. My fiancée's priest who passed away willed his money to a religiously affiliated charity, but not to the Church itself.
                    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                    "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                    "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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                    • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

                      Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
                      Huh? I thought Popes got to make up Dogma as they went along. That's how priests couldn't marry, how they started doing the indulgence thing, made up purgatory and limbo, etc. WHen ever there is a convenient reason for the Dogma to change (keeping property with the church instead of the wife/family, needing $$ for the Basilica, etc) it does. There is no financial gain to change the Dogma re the marriage thing or the gay thing so it doesn't change. Of course financially in the end this shoots them in the foot but...
                      Dogma can be changed but it has to be formally announced by the magisterium (basically, the Vatican, with the Pope in the lead).

                      There actually was an experiment after the Great Schism to make dogmatic changes a function of the cardinals meeting en banc as a council -- a parliamentary system that would have markedly liberalized church institutions. But the popes beat it back and restored themselves as absolute monarchs, and have remained so.

                      If Conciliarism had triumphed, Protestantism might well have been unnecessary and Christian history very different.
                      Cornell University
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                      ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
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                      • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

                        Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                        When a Catholic priest dies, the assets of that priest are not handed over to the Church as a matter rule. While many of them do give the monetary assets to the Church, not all do. Some give it to extended family - nieces and nephews, bast-ard children, and so on. My fiancée's priest who passed away willed his money to a religiously affiliated charity, but not to the Church itself.
                        WHen they first decided priests couldn'tbe married one of the motivators was supposedly that the property (lands) went to family- wife and kids). No family, no property leaving church.

                        Went down the rabbit hole one evening following church history re Popes, cardinals, how the system works. Until late 1800s the Pope was the head of the council but not infallible, he was mouthpiece but supposedly not the only way things could get done.

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                        • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

                          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                          For the post graduates believing religion is not important...there are about 2.5x as many that believe it is very important. Another way to look at that...support for Donald Trump is a measly 42% but that's twice the rate of those believing religion is not very important.

                          Pretty impressive...thanks for that.
                          Go Gophers!

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                          • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

                            Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                            For the post graduates believing religion is not important...there are about 2.5x as many that believe it is very important. Another way to look at that...support for Donald Trump is a measly 42% but that's twice the rate of those believing religion is not very important.

                            Pretty impressive...thanks for that.
                            Those post graduates include a lot of MBA degrees. Just saying.
                            "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                            "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                            "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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                            • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

                              Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                              Those post graduates include a lot of MBA degrees. Just saying.
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                              • Re: Religion Thread: We Could Say a Prayer

                                Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                                Those post graduates include a lot of MBA degrees. Just saying.
                                And the balance of society rates religion as even more highly important.

                                It appears your argument works against your point.
                                Go Gophers!

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