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Thread: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    I love when conservatives think you can break the law as long as you have a lawyer.

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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    If the attorney breaks the law it all goes out the window.
    Hmm. That would actually make me worry. Let's say my lawyer's office gets raided for evidence that he's a criminal. Heck let's even say he is a criminal -- I had the misfortune of hiring Dump's lawyer.

    But I have rights, too. So when they're rifling his cabinets and they come across my files, do they have to leave them?
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Hmm. That would actually make me worry. Let's say my lawyer's office gets raided for evidence that he's a criminal. Heck let's even say he is a criminal -- I had the misfortune of hiring Dump's lawyer.

    But I have rights, too. So when they're rifling his cabinets and they come across my files, so they have to leave them?
    They can't use his work product against you. So, I would not be worried. Now if he was breaking the law for you, all bets are off.
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Let's say I am charged with murdering a guy. I hire you as my lawyer. Then you ask me "did you kill this guy?" and I say "oh, hell yeah; I'd do it again, too." And I want to plead innocent.

    Do you have to drop my defense? How do you do that without my case being hopelessly compromised?
    No your attorney does not have to drop you as a client. When you plead "not guilty" you are not saying "I did not do the exact thing I have been legally and properly charged with." That's why perjury charges don't get added on just because a defendant pleads "not guilty." What you are actually saying is "I am not admitting to anything and the state must prove to a jury (or judge) beyond reasonable doubt that I have committed a crime. You still have the right to a defense, guilty or otherwise.

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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    They can't use his work product against you. So, I would not be worried. Now if he was breaking the law for you, all bets are off.
    Why am I not consoled? This feels like a situation where the cops get a warrant and break down my neighbor's door to get his drugs. While there, they find my drugs, for which they not only did not have a warrant but any inkling. But now I'm screwed too.
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
    No your attorney does not have to drop you as a client. When you plead "not guilty" you are not saying "I did not do the exact thing I have been legally and properly charged with." That's why perjury charges don't get added on just because a defendant pleads "not guilty." What you are actually saying is "I am not admitting to anything and the state must prove to a jury (or judge) beyond reasonable doubt that I have committed a crime. You still have the right to a defense, guilty or otherwise.
    OK, that's clear and thank you.

    But are you saying a lawyer can knowingly defend a client who is lying? That doesn't sound very "officer of the court"ish.

    Let's say we go to trial and you put me on the stand and say "did you kill that guy?" and I say, "I cannot tell a lie. No!" In that moment you know I either lied to you before or I'm lying to you (and the jury, and the judge) now. Are you under any obligations?
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Why am I not consoled? This feels like a situation where the cops get a warrant and break down my neighbor's door to get his drugs. While there, they find my drugs, for which they not only did not have a warrant but any inkling. But now I'm screwed too.
    LOL. You shouldn't of had your drugs on his property.
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    Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Why am I not consoled? This feels like a situation where the cops get a warrant and break down my neighbor's door to get his drugs. While there, they find my drugs, for which they not only did not have a warrant but any inkling. But now I'm screwed too.
    There is no neighbor to neighbor privilege Kep. You need to keep your drugs in your house. If the cops are legally executing a warrant and they uncover evidence of another crime in the process, they don't have to look the other way.

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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    OK, that's clear and thank you.

    But are you saying a lawyer can knowingly defend a client who is lying? That doesn't sound very "officer of the cort"ish.
    A lawyer can knowingly defend a client who is guilty, but they cannot knowingly let or advise that the client lie, either on the stand or if that client chooses to speak with law enforcement while not under oath. They cannot put them on the stand and knowingly accept an answer they know to be untrue.

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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    They also raided his hotel room..
    Last edited by bronconick; 04-09-2018 at 03:55 PM.
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
    There is no neighbor to neighbor privilege Kep. You need to keep your drugs in your house. If the cops are legally executing a warrant and they uncover evidence of another crime in the process, they don't have to look the other way.
    Yes, I get that, it was a (poor) analogy. Let me try again.

    Dump and I have the same lawyer, "Obvious Criminal, Esq," (hereafter "OC").

    Dump and OC are engaging in several criminal practices. There is an FBI investigation of them.

    I am under another completely independent FBI investigation for actions of which OC is completely innocent, but he does have many of my private files pertaining to the subject matter.

    The FBI has no warrant for me. So they get a warrant for OC's criminality with Dump, kick the door in, and glad bag OC's whole office.

    So now the FBI has my files, and they have an investigation of me, but they had no right to grab my files without a warrant. Are my rights really going to be respected in that case, or will they go through all my files and then just happen to ask for a warrant for my one smoking gun document they would never have known about had they not raided for Dump?
    Last edited by Kepler; 04-09-2018 at 03:55 PM.
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    LOL. You shouldn't of had your drugs on his property.
    Yeah, I gotta get better neighbors. Stupid dirt bag gets himself raided...
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
    They cannot put them on the stand and knowingly accept an answer they know to be untrue.
    What if I lie on the cross and you know it but you didn't ask the question?
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by bronconick View Post
    They also raided his hotel room..
    Even better. Any attorney who pays hush money to a porn star to protect a sex criminal deserves everything he gets.
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Which is why they needed a warrant. But Mafia lawyers can't hide their clients' criminal evidence.

    Maybe next time don't nominate and elect an actual criminal to the US Presidency? Just a thought.

    It is kinda cool, though, hearing the right declare their support for due process and the rights of the accused for the first time in, well, ever. So that's healthy anyway.
    First, when have I ever suggested that accused are not entitled to due process? I'm curious.

    Second, my post was not intended to be limited to Cohen's case. Scooby came when it was announced the Cohen's offices had been raided and his files seized. It's pretty obvious why Scoob reacted that way.

    My point is that I don't think it's necessarily a day to be excited when the government starts raiding attorneys offices and seizing confidential communication. As you and others have noted, yes there may be some evidence that this lawyer was engaged in illegal activities in which case those materials are arguably available for seizure by the feds. On the other hand, there is a pretty good chance that other stuff is going to get swept up in that seizure.

    All I'm saying is that people like Scoobs should be careful what they wish for. There is a chance that next time it's be the Feds knocking down the door of the lawyer for someone you support.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Someone convinced a judge to sign off on a warrant for the personal lawyer of the sitting President of the United States.

    I imagine you must need pretty much a conviction for that evidence to get that
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    First, when have I ever suggested that accused are not entitled to due process? I'm curious.

    Second, my post was not intended to be limited to Cohen's case. Scooby came when it was announced the Cohen's offices had been raided and his files seized. It's pretty obvious why Scoob reacted that way.

    My point is that I don't think it's necessarily a day to be excited when the government starts raiding attorneys offices and seizing confidential communication. As you and others have noted, yes there may be some evidence that this lawyer was engaged in illegal activities in which case those materials are arguably available for seizure by the feds. On the other hand, there is a pretty good chance that other stuff is going to get swept up in that seizure.

    All I'm saying is that people like Scoobs should be careful what they wish for. There is a chance that next time it's be the Feds knocking down the door of the lawyer for someone you support.
    I believe in our justice system. You don't?
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by bronconick View Post
    Someone convinced a judge to sign off on a warrant for the personal lawyer of the sitting President of the United States.

    I imagine you must need pretty much a conviction for that evidence to get that
    So, you're asking CAFE to accept that there is no chance a judge might be inclined to make what others might look at as a political decision?
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by bronconick View Post
    Someone convinced a judge to sign off on a warrant for the personal lawyer of the sitting President of the United States.

    I imagine you must need pretty much a conviction for that evidence to get that
    Probably a conservative judge too considering all the Obama nominees that were blocked and all the judges Turtle Boy has plowed through. It's Turtle Boy's proudest achievement.
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    Re: POTUS 45.31: "The Caravan is Coming.""The Caravan is Coming."

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    So, you're asking CAFE to accept that there is no chance a judge might be inclined to make what others might look at as a political decision?
    That Judge would be breaking his or her oath if he/she did that. I seriously doubt it.
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