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Thread: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    My take-
    Conferences used to be a regional thing where tribes of schools can get together and economically play a sport. And at the end of the season, all is mixed into a tournament or bowl games to decide a national champion.

    Then it started to take on more of an economic income device. PSU was added to the B1G, and quickly after that the BTN was formed- which added a lot of money into the coffers of the schools. Then all of the rest of the conferences saw that opportunity and joined into the fun of all of that. At THAT point, the whole point of conferences that we dreamed of in the past changed.

    But it only *really * worked for football. It kind of worked pretty well for BB, but BB only conferences like the Big East were blown up by the money of football. Which changed things even more. (which begs the question- how many NC's did BC win for the BE vs. the ACC?)

    The problem with all of that- it really didn't work for hockey, since the scales of schools participating varied all over the place- so it made more sense for the small schools to be more the traditional regional(ish) schools and let the big schools be more spread out.

    Given ND's level of athletics- it kind of made sense originally that they would go HE. But since hockey is expensive, and ND isn't a hockey school, and there are smaller schools in HE- I see all of that contributing to ND needing to leave.

    So lets look at the choices that they have to go- WCHA- the only "like" school there is BG (who have a large athletic budget relative to the rest of the schools). Not a great fit, but it could work. NCHC- like schools- Miami and WMU (the rest are down conferences or not)- again, could work, as the hockey budgets in that conference are clearly more. B1G- the entire conference are "like" schools, and even better, many are already traditional rivals in other sports, let alone the hockey history. Double bonus for how close 3 of the schools are relative to South Bend.

    When it comes to simple logic, it just makes sense that ND would be in the B1G.

    I'm ok with it.

    For many of those reasons, I also see ASU being a member until more western schools start playing hockey. I know that ND complained about western travel, but ASU would be one weekend a year there- which is much less than going to the east coast every other weekend. The "politics" of large athletic programs would not be an issue, too.

  2. #22
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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by alfablue View Post
    (which begs the question- how many NC's did BC win for the BE vs. the ACC?)
    One for the Big East and 3 for the ACC.

    As to Notre Dame, it's my opinion that they probably wanted to join the B1G from the start and the conference played hardball to try and get ND to join in all sports. That didn't happen and the B1G folded first as their need to have Notre Dame was greater than Notre Dame's need to be in the B1G for hockey.

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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnsonsJerseys View Post
    I fixed the typo in your quote above...

    Truth be told, Notre Dame is actually a member of the WCHA and we've had them participating in a trial "loan-a-team" program since 1981. (This special program is current scheduled to end following the 2030-2031 season.) Once the Title IX crowd gets their way in North Dakota, and the men's team folds as well, we'll be moving Notre Dame into the NCHC for a two-year stint, 2021-2023.

    After that is completed, they will become one of the charter teams of the PAC10 hockey conference along with ASU. There will be 20 conference games scheduled per season with Notre Dame and ASU each listed as the home team for 10 games. However since ASU still won't have a rink by then, all games will actually be played at Notre Dame. The teams will simply swap jersey colors home/road for each game. The 20 game conference schedule of the PAC10 hockey conference also allows for ample non-conference games to be scheduled.

    Following the 2030-31 season, Notre Dame will be released from the WCHA to play as an independent, but in an ironic twist will only play intra-squad games going forward. All games will be covered lived in prime time on NBC in 3D ultra-vision with NBCSN simulcast proving additional camera angles, color commentary and running "Rudy" via picture-in-picture during all games.

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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    No
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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Let me ask this and I'm not targeting hockey, but does this system allowing schools to be members of conferences for specific sports allow them to seed the sports they do well into conferences that they would have a better chance to dominate? Just a devils advocate question.

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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeybuckeye View Post
    Let me ask this and I'm not targeting hockey, but does this system allowing schools to be members of conferences for specific sports allow them to seed the sports they do well into conferences that they would have a better chance to dominate? Just a devils advocate question.
    If your conference offers the sport, you must play in conference. If it doesn't, or you're an independent, you can go anywhere to help a conference get to 6 members and an AQ.

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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    If your conference offers the sport, you must play in conference. If it doesn't, or you're an independent, you can go anywhere to help a conference get to 6 members and an AQ.
    I'm not 100% certain on this but to have the minimum 6 teams to have a sport be officially part of your conference such as when the B1G hockey conference was formed don't all 6 founding teams MUST be FULL FLEDGED members of the conference and not an associate member like Notre Dame currently is?
    Which means if Penn State never formed their team and Notre Dame wanted to join for just hockey the B1G hockey conference couldn't have been formed under those circumstances?

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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    No
    Quote Originally Posted by gopher wes View Post
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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Notre Dame? There are still those who don't accept Rutgers and Maryland... (but thanks for the cable TV money)

    Personally, not a huge fan of it but I get it - and understand why it makes some sense.
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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeybuckeye View Post
    I'm not 100% certain on this but to have the minimum 6 teams to have a sport be officially part of your conference such as when the B1G hockey conference was formed don't all 6 founding teams MUST be FULL FLEDGED members of the conference and not an associate member like Notre Dame currently is?
    Which means if Penn State never formed their team and Notre Dame wanted to join for just hockey the B1G hockey conference couldn't have been formed under those circumstances?
    No. The 5 B1G schools could have formed B1G hockey with Notre Dame (or anyone else) as an affiliate any time they wanted to. For example, the PAC-12 wrestling conference was formed with 3 PAC 12 schools and 3 affiliate schools. When there aren't enough conference member schools playing a sport, schools can form or affiliate with any conference they want to in that sport by mutual agreement.

    B1G conference rules just say that if six full members do have a sport, they must play in the B1G conference. Which is how Terry Pegula created B1G Hockey.
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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeybuckeye View Post
    ...
    Which means if Penn State never formed their team and Notre Dame wanted to join for just hockey the B1G hockey conference couldn't have been formed under those circumstances?
    That’s kind of an academic question.

    If Penn State hadn’t formed their team, Notre Dame (and Michigan, Michigan State, and Ohio State) would probably still be the big dogs in the CCHA, and Wisconsin and Minnesota would have great rivalries in the WCHA.

    When Penn State formed their team, that made six B1G teams, which meant, so we were told that (as Wisko says) they had to play in a B1G hockey conference. That started the mass realignment, many teams getting fugged in the process.

    Not aiming at you directly Honeybuckeye, but I find the B1G totally disrupting the college hockey landscape, then questioning whether Notre Dame is “deserving” to be kind of like the cliché about the kid who kills his parents then whines about being an orphan.

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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Notre Dame is the one that got away for the Big Ten.

    They’re a quintessential big ten school. Miswesr, good academics, rife with cash, and name recognition. Notre Dame isn’t a research powerhouse like the rest of the big ten schools though.
    Years ago Notre Dame tried to get admitted into the Big Ten and the Big Ten at the time said, no thank you.
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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by alfablue View Post
    My take-
    Conferences used to be a regional thing where tribes of schools can get together and economically play a sport. And at the end of the season, all is mixed into a tournament or bowl games to decide a national champion.

    Then it started to take on more of an economic income device. PSU was added to the B1G, and quickly after that the BTN was formed- which added a lot of money into the coffers of the schools. Then all of the rest of the conferences saw that opportunity and joined into the fun of all of that. At THAT point, the whole point of conferences that we dreamed of in the past changed.

    But it only *really * worked for football. It kind of worked pretty well for BB, but BB only conferences like the Big East were blown up by the money of football. Which changed things even more. (which begs the question- how many NC's did BC win for the BE vs. the ACC?)

    The problem with all of that- it really didn't work for hockey, since the scales of schools participating varied all over the place- so it made more sense for the small schools to be more the traditional regional(ish) schools and let the big schools be more spread out.

    Given ND's level of athletics- it kind of made sense originally that they would go HE. But since hockey is expensive, and ND isn't a hockey school, and there are smaller schools in HE- I see all of that contributing to ND needing to leave.

    So lets look at the choices that they have to go- WCHA- the only "like" school there is BG (who have a large athletic budget relative to the rest of the schools). Not a great fit, but it could work. NCHC- like schools- Miami and WMU (the rest are down conferences or not)- again, could work, as the hockey budgets in that conference are clearly more. B1G- the entire conference are "like" schools, and even better, many are already traditional rivals in other sports, let alone the hockey history. Double bonus for how close 3 of the schools are relative to South Bend.

    When it comes to simple logic, it just makes sense that ND would be in the B1G.

    I'm ok with it.

    For many of those reasons, I also see ASU being a member until more western schools start playing hockey. I know that ND complained about western travel, but ASU would be one weekend a year there- which is much less than going to the east coast every other weekend. The "politics" of large athletic programs would not be an issue, too.
    Louisiana Tech was added to the MOUNTAIN WEST (lots of mountains in Western Louisiana I guess), Maryland was added to the B1G, Arizona and Arizona State were added to the Pac-X (rumor has it that you can see the Pacific Ocean from the top of Sun Devil Stadium)..

    But seriously, the whole point is for "neighboring" schools (schools at least within, say, 10,000 miles of each other) to be able to participate in inter-collegiate athletics while still maintaining some semblance of "reasonable" travel costs while sharing regional similarities.
    Last edited by chickod; 03-28-2018 at 02:15 PM.

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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by chickod View Post
    Louisiana Tech was added to the MOUNTAIN WEST (lots of mountains in Western Louisiana I guess), Maryland was added to the B1G, Arizona and Arizona State were added to the Pac-X (rumor has it that you can see the Pacific Ocean from the top of Sun Devil Stadium)..

    But seriously, the whole point is for "neighboring" schools (schools at least within, say, 10,000 miles of each other) to be able to participate in inter-collegiate athletics while still maintaining some semblance of "reasonable" travel costs while sharing regional similarities.

    At least ASU and UA are in the PACific timezone half the year.

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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    [QUOTE=Wisko B1G conference rules just say that if six full members do have a sport, they must play in the B1G conference. Which is how Terry Pegula created B1G Hockey.[/QUOTE]

    Actually the rule does not say they MUST, it says that at that point they can.

    And for all the claimed hang wringing I see about ND never in the b1g because of research etc etc etc. If they came a calling like they did in hockey it would happen in a $heart$beat.

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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4four4 View Post
    Years ago Notre Dame tried to get admitted into the Big Ten and the Big Ten at the time said, no thank you.
    1. When was this?
    2. I assume, if this is true, that Notre Dame tried to get into the B1G for all sports EXCEPT football.
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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by gopher wes View Post
    1. When was this?
    2. I assume, if this is true, that Notre Dame tried to get into the B1G for all sports EXCEPT football.
    Around the time the U of Chicago was getting out of the Division one business. I remember reading Notre Dame tried twice around this time.
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    Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLS View Post
    That’s kind of an academic question.

    If Penn State hadn’t formed their team, Notre Dame (and Michigan, Michigan State, and Ohio State) would probably still be the big dogs in the CCHA, and Wisconsin and Minnesota would have great rivalries in the WCHA.

    When Penn State formed their team, that made six B1G teams, which meant, so we were told that (as Wisko says) they had to play in a B1G hockey conference. That started the mass realignment, many teams getting fugged in the process.

    Not aiming at you directly Honeybuckeye, but I find the B1G totally disrupting the college hockey landscape, then questioning whether Notre Dame is “deserving” to be kind of like the cliché about the kid who kills his parents then whines about being an orphan.
    The Big Ten rule is that if HALF the schools play the sport, they sponsor a championship. And because they knew that Maryland and Rutgers were coming in, they didn't have to form the Big Ten hockey league since there are now 6 full conference members that play of the 14 total (42.8%). They got sold a bill of goods by BTN that they would increase TV appearances by creating the league and cut out the smaller schools from any revenue sharing. One of those didn't happen, one did. And as a result, much of college hockey as we knew it got sold down the river.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4four4 View Post
    Around the time the U of Chicago was getting out of the Division one business. I remember reading Notre Dame tried twice around this time.
    There were also talks in the late 90s. If I'm remembering correctly, ND first went to the table with all sports except football. Big Ten countered with all or nothing. ND nearly accepted, but some old money or higher ups on the board wanted to stay independent and ultimately said no.

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