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Thread: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

  1. #121
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    The nom was fixed in the way that most are -- insiders decide on their favorite and then do whatever they can to help them over the finish line, in exchange for goodies. I'm not saying he would have won if it wasn't, but as it played out she was given a huge advantage. That's not on Hillary; it's the way our politics has always worked. But to claim it was somehow the first unsullied nomination in party history is what's "pretending."
    Sanders getting zero support from non-whites in a Democratic primary doomed him. And if someone wants to run his playbook in 2020, they better improve on that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    The nom was fixed in the way that most are -- insiders decide on their favorite and then do whatever they can to help them over the finish line, in exchange for goodies. I'm not saying he would have won if it wasn't, but as it played out she was given a huge advantage. That's not on Hillary; it's the way our politics has always worked. But to claim it was somehow the first unsullied nomination in party history is what's "pretending."
    If Sanders had made any inroads with the African American vote, he would've won the nomination. That's not on the DNC, that's on him.

    Edit: I see this has already been covered.

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by bronconick View Post
    Sanders getting zero support from non-whites in a Democratic primary doomed him. And if someone wants to run his playbook in 2020, they better improve on that.
    That is the first intelligent criticism of my argument I've seen on this thread. Thank you.

    It's a very good point. I can't explain it, which I'm sure is part of the problem. There is absolutely no reason why economic liberalism shouldn't resonate with non-whites. Even if one argues that it is a competing narrative with the identity red meat of the last two decades, there's no reason in principle why a savvy pol -- particularly a savvy pol of color -- couldn't merge the two in a reunification of liberalism's two great 20th century strands.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Every day, we talk about the tragedy of Trump. We talk about dismantling the government, demeaning individuals, trade wars and supreme court justices. Well that all comes out of the vote...with much of that comes down to how the middle perceives Democratic party. Did Bernie get some disservice from the DNC? It appears yes. But the intention was to make Hillary seem like a national candidate when she was going to win anyways...this to improve her chances of winning the presidency. On the other side, the right wing media does its best to stop Democrats by criticizing everything with a D behind it. So when Democrats do the same...it just works against us.

    The broader point...I believe...is that we need all hands on deck. We lost by tens of thousands of votes in a number of places.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    That is the first intelligent criticism of my argument I've seen on this thread. Thank you.
    .
    Wrong.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    That is the first intelligent criticism of my argument I've seen on this thread. Thank you.

    It's a very good point. I can't explain it, which I'm sure is part of the problem. There is absolutely no reason why economic liberalism shouldn't resonate with non-whites. Even if one argues that it is a competing narrative with the identity red meat of the last two decades, there's no reason in principle why a savvy pol -- particularly a savvy pol of color -- couldn't merge the two in a reunification of liberalism's two great 20th century strands.
    It wasnt his policies, it was that he couldnt fund his policies and he just wasnt likeable to a large portion of the base. I love him but I am not a young black male.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    It wasnt his policies, it was that he couldnt fund his policies and he just wasnt likeable to a large portion of the base. I love him but I am not a young black male.
    We can fund the transition to universal free health care and education by halving the military budget, restoring the progressive taxation of the New Deal, and clawing back everything the Plutes have stolen since 1980.

    We can maintain that forever because the restoration of the Middle Class and giving everyone genuine equal opportunity unleashes the maximum productive force of the market. The power and freedom to create that our grandchildren will have in a post-coercion economy will be greater than ours by the same factor that a Capitalist economy was more productive than Feudalism.
    Last edited by Kepler; 04-08-2018 at 09:07 AM.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    The broader point...I believe...is that we need all hands on deck. We lost by tens of thousands of votes in a number of places.
    Certainly. These arguments are bear cubs from the same mother practicing and sharpening their claws. I'm fighting Rover in fun to build both our muscles. Soon enough we'll be fighting on the same side and using those claws for real against the true threat. That will not be in fun.

    Every one of us has to do what he or she can this year to put as many of these fat fascist f-cks out of work as possible. Congress sure but also state and local. The only good Republican is an ex-incumbent.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I'm fighting Rover in fun to build both our muscles.
    Its the reason we're all here.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    "If, in a year from now, if we're ready, and nobody has moved in that I think can do it, then I may very well do it."

    - Joe Biden
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    That is the first intelligent criticism of my argument I've seen on this thread. Thank you.

    It's a very good point. I can't explain it, which I'm sure is part of the problem. There is absolutely no reason why economic liberalism shouldn't resonate with non-whites. Even if one argues that it is a competing narrative with the identity red meat of the last two decades, there's no reason in principle why a savvy pol -- particularly a savvy pol of color -- couldn't merge the two in a reunification of liberalism's two great 20th century strands.
    Dem primary turnout tends to skew older, and the baby boomer generation is still scared of the Cold War and socialism. It wasn’t an issue with black voters as much as it was an issue with older voters in every racial demographic.
    Last edited by trixR4kids; 04-09-2018 at 02:07 AM.

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    Dem primary turnout tends to skew older, and the baby boomer generation is still scared of the Cold War and socialism. It wasn’t an issue with black voters as much as it was an issue with older voters in every racial demographic.
    Except Bernie held his own with White voters. He absolutely got destroyed on the African-American vote. Either they all voted against him, or he couldn't bring out younger Blacks in the same proportion as younger Whites. Either way, that's on him.

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    Except Bernie held his own with White voters. He absolutely got destroyed on the African-American vote. Either they all voted against him, or he couldn't bring out younger Blacks in the same proportion as younger Whites. Either way, that's on him.
    I hope it's on him. If it's the content of economic liberalism then there is a disconnect.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    "If, in a year from now, if we're ready, and nobody has moved in that I think can do it, then I may very well do it."

    - Joe Biden
    Any port in a storm and Handsome Joe would destroy Dump. Not in my top 50 choices, but...

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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Hey Rover

    Would you agree that the D side is also driven by fear and hate of all things !D?
    Not enough for my tastes! The problem with Dem voters is that they're always trying to find the mythical moderate Republican that they can latch onto. They thought they'd found that years ago with McCain and his "maverick" image, but he sold out to Bush II even after Dubya started a whispering campaign that McCain was nuts and actually fathered his adopted Asian daughter out of wedlock. Then they latched on to Susan Collins who voted to confirm Gorsuch and voted for recent tax theft. Some day they may realize that the GOP, all of them, are a treasonous money laundering cult. Not sure we're there yet even with Chump as Prez.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    A few more points:

    1) Kep no offense but again you're refusing to acknowledge the whims of the electorate over the last 40 years. You continue to harp on the Dems sold out meme since 1980, apparently completely oblivious that the Dems nominated arch liberals in 1984 and 1988 and won about 11 states over TWO elections! Clearly, arch liberalism wasn't selling with the voters particularly idiot baby boomers. Had they gone arch liberal in 1992 they would have received a similar @ ssbeating and Breyer and RBG would have been supplanted by two Scalia wannabes. Sometimes it helps to spend time in reality, Kep, not how you wish history should be re-written.

    2) Saying "economic liberalism" is the cure for the problems of non-whites smacks of elitism that even I can see from the back of my limo, and that's saying something. Non-whites, particularly, blacks are concerned that they and their kids are going to get gunned down while unarmed at a traffic stop. Sanders to my knowledge really made no connection with that angst beyond the vague promise that taxing the rich back to the Stone Age would help them out with all that. Oh, and trix the Dem primary skews non-white as a whole. I think 40% of primary Dem voters are in fact non-white. This is going to be a major factor to help determine who the 2020 nominee is at it helped pick from the 2008 and 2016 nominees.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    A few more points:

    1) Kep no offense but again you're refusing to acknowledge the whims of the electorate over the last 40 years. You continue to harp on the Dems sold out meme since 1980, apparently completely oblivious that the Dems nominated arch liberals in 1984 and 1988 and won about 11 states over TWO elections! Clearly, arch liberalism wasn't selling with the voters particularly idiot baby boomers. Had they gone arch liberal in 1992 they would have received a similar @ ssbeating and Breyer and RBG would have been supplanted by two Scalia wannabes. Sometimes it helps to spend time in reality, Kep, not how you wish history should be re-written.

    2) Saying "economic liberalism" is the cure for the problems of non-whites smacks of elitism that even I can see from the back of my limo, and that's saying something. Non-whites, particularly, blacks are concerned that they and their kids are going to get gunned down while unarmed at a traffic stop. Sanders to my knowledge really made no connection with that angst beyond the vague promise that taxing the rich back to the Stone Age would help them out with all that. Oh, and trix the Dem primary skews non-white as a whole. I think 40% of primary Dem voters are in fact non-white. This is going to be a major factor to help determine who the 2020 nominee is at it helped pick from the 2008 and 2016 nominees.
    Until they start accepting that Susan Sarandon won and Bernie voters were so butthurt they voted for Dump they'll never learn. In addition to figuring out how to win without being able to even communicate with the 33% they need to figure out how not to **** off the "all or nothing" Democrats that get so depressed their beloved candidate didn't win they throw the election.

    I'm willing to bet they don't figure this out. And I'm willing to bet it costs the Dems valuable seats this November. Everyone will call it a wave but it won't be as large as it needs to be. You see the seeds sewn already in the way Lamb ran and won.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    1) Your evidence is 30 years old. As you say, electorates change. Since the great Theft of 2006, people have been ready to put the Plutes in their place. The Tea Party and Dump are how voters on the right responded to this -- it was dumb and misdirected and self-harming, but it was a response. Liz and Bernie are the response on the left so far. We need a solid and charismatic leader committed to those principles who also lives in the real world. Gavin Newsom is my current flavor of the month. Our views are not mutually exclusive, Rover.

    2) Blacks are treated like sh-t because blacks are poor and the poor are treated like sh-t. Break the back of economic inequality and we'll break the back of racial inequality. It does nobody any good to have a system where rich black women can treat poor white men like garbage, and that's what the identity movement of the last 30 years in lefty academia has aimed for.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Susan Sarandon
    Can we please have some perspective here and realize that Susan Sarandon is one stupid person? The number of people who think as she can comfortably fit in Lynah Rink with room to spare, and they all either inhabit Hollywood or the editorial page of Jacobin.

    Whenever I read people whining about Susan Sarandon I see Flag under his bed hiding from The Globalists.
    Last edited by Kepler; 04-09-2018 at 10:12 AM.
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Boogaloo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    1) Your evidence is 30 years old. As you say, electorates change. Since the great Theft of 2006, people have been ready to put the Plutes in their place. The Tea Party and Dump are how voters on the right responded to this -- it was dumb and misdirected and self-harming, but it was a response. Liz and Bernie are the response on the left so far. We need a solid and charismatic leader committed to those principles who also lives in the real world. Gavin Newsom is my current flavor of the month. Our views are not mutually exclusive, Rover.

    2) Blacks are treated like sh-t because blacks are poor and the poor are treated like sh-t. Break the back of economic inequality and we'll break the back of racial inequality. It does nobody any good to have a system where rich black women can treat poor white men like garbage, and that's what the identity movement of the last 30 years in lefty academia has aimed for.
    #1 - you've repeatedly said Dems have sold out for the last 40 years. Go back and search your own posts. Now its been since 2006? I'll ask again, do you think a more liberal pol than Dukakis would have won in 1988?????

    #2 - No offense, but your point is absurd. If people weren't poor, there'd be no racial discrimination? Really?
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