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  • #31
    Re: UCHC Standings

    Originally posted by NUProf View Post
    You have described the issue. Hockey wanted to try to make a carve out for the DII hockey programs that tried to fit into the D3 world. Nothing came of it because there was a fear that it would set a precedent for other sports making changes. There are number of sports that probably would want some changes to fit their unique situations. Since the general philosophy is "same rules for every sport," sports with lower levels of participation are not going to be allowed to make their own rules. I agree there are inequities in the system as far as hockey is concerned. One thing that would increase at large bids would be to change the minimum number of teams for a Pool A bid from 7 to a larger number like 10. Doing so would eliminate the tendency for single sports leagues to evolve with (remarkably) seven or 8 members.

    Since the NCAA rule is one tournament slot for every 6.5 teams, Pool C bids occur because of the teams in leagues with more than 7 teams. Two 10 teams leagues will together generate two Pool A bids and one Pool C bid. (20 team produce 3 NCAA slots). However, it there were 21 teams in 3 7 team leagues, they will produce 3 Pool A bids and no Pool C bids.
    Thanks, guys, but I don't see any intrinsic merit in the putative D-3 "logic", and I'm pretty-sure that D-3 wouldn't be denied the 0.5% cut of the hoops $ if they were to propose a more equitable system, even if it varied from sport to sport in some considered way.

    Does anyone seriously think that the NCAA brass gives a flying ---- about D-3 hockey, or about D-3 sports in general..? I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the NCAA would be perfectly fine with fair metrics determining every D-3 playoff-field, should D-3 ask for it, and be would fine with reasonable variations of them here and there to suit different sports.

    (Why in the world would they not? I haven't heard a thing that would make me think otherwise.)
    Last edited by Fishman'81; 02-12-2018, 11:19 PM.

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    • #32
      Re: UCHC Standings

      Originally posted by Fishman'81 View Post
      Thanks, guys, but I don't see any intrinsic merit in the putative D-3 "logic", and I'm pretty-sure that D-3 wouldn't be denied the 0.5% cut of the hoops $ if they were to propose a more equitable system, even if it varied from sport to sport in some considered way.

      Does anyone seriously think that the NCAA brass gives a flying ---- about D-3 hockey, or about D-3 sports in general..? I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the NCAA would be perfectly fine with fair metrics determining every D-3 playoff-field, should D-3 ask for it, and be would fine with reasonable variations of them here and there to suit different sports.

      (Why in the world would they not? I haven't heard a thing that would make me think otherwise.)
      I think you are getting two thoughts mixed up...

      First, the 0.5% cut that was mentioned was in response to your idea of pulling hockey out of the NCAA. Who would pay for the sport on the national tournament level without the NCAA kicking in 0.5%?

      As for "intrinsic merit in the putative D-3 "logic"" -- I don't think many of us are disputing your point about the fact that various sports should be allowed different rules. After all, as you point out, they do that in D1. However, it's the D3 members themselves who insist on this. And nobody has been able to change their minds.

      The NCAA is not some mysterious entity in the Netherlands. It's made up of members who decide the rules. And the D3 members have been quite clear many times that all D3 sports should be run the same. And like someone pointed out, even when hockey tried to change the rules -- counting the games against D2 schools in the criteria -- those members shot it down.

      And no, I'm not defending them. I don't like it either. But, it's not the "NCAA" per se that is dictating this. It is the membership. The NCAA is just carrying out the members' wishes. And until someone can convince the membership otherwise, that's where your anger should be pointed to.
      Russell Jaslow
      [Former] SUNYAC Correspondent
      U.S. College Hockey Online

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      • #33
        Re: UCHC Standings

        Originally posted by Russell Jaslow View Post
        I think you are getting two thoughts mixed up...

        First, the 0.5% cut that was mentioned was in response to your idea of pulling hockey out of the NCAA. Who would pay for the sport on the national tournament level without the NCAA kicking in 0.5%?

        As for "intrinsic merit in the putative D-3 "logic"" -- I don't think many of us are disputing your point about the fact that various sports should be allowed different rules. After all, as you point out, they do that in D1. However, it's the D3 members themselves who insist on this. And nobody has been able to change their minds.

        The NCAA is not some mysterious entity in the Netherlands. It's made up of members who decide the rules. And the D3 members have been quite clear many times that all D3 sports should be run the same. And like someone pointed out, even when hockey tried to change the rules -- counting the games against D2 schools in the criteria -- those members shot it down.

        And no, I'm not defending them. I don't like it either. But, it's not the "NCAA" per se that is dictating this. It is the membership. The NCAA is just carrying out the members' wishes. And until someone can convince the membership otherwise, that's where your anger should be pointed to.
        The ONLY counterpoint I have to that and I hope it was brought up in the discussions. How many other conferences in the country or other sports have instances where Division II teams were member of Division III conferences because Division II hockey does not exist?
        The Poster Formerly Known as Purple_and_Gold10©
        "The Prezidential Three - Elmira, Oswego, Norwich" © Joecct
        GO EAGLES!!! R.I.P. L.H. #4 In our hearts forever
        GO LAKERS!!!
        GO CADETS!!! R.I.P. Charlie Crosby '63
        "Reisweber trying to circle in front of the net, he does, HE SCORES! that's it! Oswego State has done it!! The Lakers take home the first NCAA title of any kind in school history. It's celebration time in Upstate New York!"
        Oswego State '09

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        • #34
          Re: UCHC Standings

          Originally posted by PrezdeJohnson09 View Post
          The ONLY counterpoint I have to that and I hope it was brought up in the discussions. How many other conferences in the country or other sports have instances where Division II teams were member of Division III conferences because Division II hockey does not exist?
          I was just using that as an example of a potential unique rule situation...

          But to carry your rhetorical question further ... I don't know. LOL
          Russell Jaslow
          [Former] SUNYAC Correspondent
          U.S. College Hockey Online

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: UCHC Standings

            Originally posted by Russell Jaslow View Post
            I was just using that as an example of a potential unique rule situation...

            But to carry your rhetorical question further ... I don't know. LOL
            I know you were...it just seems crazy to me that exemptions weren't allowed on that front.
            The Poster Formerly Known as Purple_and_Gold10©
            "The Prezidential Three - Elmira, Oswego, Norwich" © Joecct
            GO EAGLES!!! R.I.P. L.H. #4 In our hearts forever
            GO LAKERS!!!
            GO CADETS!!! R.I.P. Charlie Crosby '63
            "Reisweber trying to circle in front of the net, he does, HE SCORES! that's it! Oswego State has done it!! The Lakers take home the first NCAA title of any kind in school history. It's celebration time in Upstate New York!"
            Oswego State '09

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Done Deal

              Originally posted by elbojpb View Post
              According to The UCHC site, (scroll to the bottom) Elmira has preemptively been awarded the League's first "AQ" and is hosting a first round NCAA game!?
              Negative, good sir. That schedule imports directly from the School's, as it's on the same web provider. Up to the schools to decide whether or not they want to put that info in or wait until later. Some like to do it for planning purposes, just in case, and so their fans know those dates in advance in an easy to find spot. They typically take them down once the opportunity to play officially no longer exists. Lots of schools do that on their sites, and from a conference side when it pulls that information directly from school schedules, sometimes it becomes a lot easier to leave it there until a school takes it down on their end so it doesn't cause a ripple effect anywhere. Such is the nature of networkable sites.

              For reference:

              http://athletics.elmira.edu/schedule.aspx?path=mhockey

              Hope that helps.
              Last edited by vcxc3200; 02-14-2018, 01:56 PM.
              Our bite is worse than our bark....
              Top guys, out.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: UCHC Standings

                Originally posted by jcase View Post
                More NCAA cartel garbage. This league, as the "ECAC West", had 7 of the same teams that it does this year. For some stupid reason the name change reset the AQ clock.
                All subject to appeal/reapplication. That one's not over, especially with the given rationale for denying the waiver.... (See below) So i'd say a fair chance that the bid may arrive for next season after reapplication. What we believe to be sensible doesn't always happen, but the hope is that they'll have to backpedal and award the bid after the conference has a year in. We'll see. Right now the 19-20 clock is the active one, but that could get overturned.

                Actual language from the Championships Committee minutes....
                "The committee did not approve a request from the United Collegiate Hockey Conference to waive the first year of the two-year waiting period to receive automatic qualification. The committee was not comfortable with giving a year of
                credit to a conference that was not yet active (the conference will be active in 2017-18) and
                whose members were previously part of a conference that was not eligible for automatic
                qualification."
                Last edited by vcxc3200; 02-14-2018, 01:27 PM.
                Our bite is worse than our bark....
                Top guys, out.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: UCHC Standings

                  Originally posted by vcxc3200 View Post
                  All subject to appeal/reapplication. That one's not over, especially with the given rationale for denying the waiver.... (See below) So i'd say a fair chance that the bid may arrive for next season after reapplication. What we believe to be sensible doesn't always happen, but the hope is that they'll have to backpedal and award the bid after the conference has a year in. We'll see. Right now the 19-20 clock is the active one, but that could get overturned.
                  Might be the only way for the UCHC to get an NCAA bid. The 1st bracketology analysis has the UCHC being shut out this year.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: UCHC Standings

                    So I ran the numbers in-attempt to anticipate all the possible standings configurations, and I think I got it right. From what I could decipher, Utica is a "lock" for the top seed, and Stevenson has secured the second seed despite what happens today. Therefore, semi-final games will be held in Utica & Stevenson on Saturday 2/24. However Wednesday 2/21 is still "TBD"...

                    Utica & LVC Win:
                    Neumann @ LVC
                    Elmira @ Manhattanville

                    Utica & Elmira Win:
                    Neumann @ Elmira
                    LVC @ Manhattanville

                    Manhattanville & LVC Win:
                    Neumann @ Manhattanville
                    Elmira @ LVC

                    Manhattanville & Elmira Win:
                    Neumann @ Manhattanville
                    LVC @ Elmira

                    It looks like there will be a Wednesday game in Manhattanville no-matter what happens today as well. Fortunately, the LVC/Elmira game has an early start (5:00pm) so we can catch most of both UCHC games that affect the final standing today! I didn't get-into the analysis of either game ending in a tie... ran-out of coffee, but I can say this... any tie(s) will not affect the outcome of the 1 & 2 seeds.

                    It's a good day for Hockey.

                    Cheers!!!
                    ~TTF
                    Last edited by Transplanted Tiger Fan; 02-17-2018, 11:41 AM. Reason: Silly Math Error... CORRECTED!!!
                    Dave
                    RIT - '90

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                    • #40
                      Re: UCHC Standings

                      What happens if there's a four way tie for first, UC wins all tiebreakers ?
                      It all starts with the goaltending.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: UCHC Standings

                        Originally posted by sshablak View Post
                        What happens if there's a four way tie for first, UC wins all tiebreakers ?
                        Pretty sure Utica has clinched the No. 1 seed per twitter.
                        The Poster Formerly Known as Purple_and_Gold10©
                        "The Prezidential Three - Elmira, Oswego, Norwich" © Joecct
                        GO EAGLES!!! R.I.P. L.H. #4 In our hearts forever
                        GO LAKERS!!!
                        GO CADETS!!! R.I.P. Charlie Crosby '63
                        "Reisweber trying to circle in front of the net, he does, HE SCORES! that's it! Oswego State has done it!! The Lakers take home the first NCAA title of any kind in school history. It's celebration time in Upstate New York!"
                        Oswego State '09

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: UCHC Standings

                          Originally posted by sshablak View Post
                          What happens if there's a four way tie for first, UC wins all tiebreakers ?
                          In the four-way tie scenario (Utica, Manhattanville, LVC, Stevenson), applying the tie-breaker criteria to determine each position I came-up with the following...

                          Top Seed:
                          First criteria = H2H:
                          Utica beats Stevenson, and 'push' with Manhattanviille & LVC (2-0-0, 1-1-0, & 1-1-0, respectively)
                          Second Criteria = League Wins:
                          Utica beats Manhattanville & LVC with 11 (vs. 10 & 10)
                          - Utica takes the Top Seed

                          Second Seed:
                          First criteria = H2H:
                          Stevenson beats both Manhattanville & LVC (2-0-0 & 1-0-1, respectively)
                          - Stevenson takes the Second Seed

                          Third Seed:
                          First criteria = H2H:
                          Manhattanville beats LVC (2-0-0)
                          - Manhattanville takes the Third Seed


                          Also... EDIT - Just realized a silly math error in the prior analysis ... corrected!! ...but just switched who-plays-who in the Utica/Elmira Win scenario.
                          Last edited by Transplanted Tiger Fan; 02-17-2018, 11:33 AM.
                          Dave
                          RIT - '90

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                          • #43
                            Re: UCHC Standings

                            Originally posted by Transplanted Tiger Fan View Post
                            In the four-way tie scenario (Utica, Manhattanville, LVC, Stevenson), applying the tie-breaker criteria to determine each position I came-up with the following...

                            Top Seed:
                            First criteria = H2H:
                            Utica beats Stevenson, and 'push' with Manhattanviille & LVC (2-0-0, 1-1-0, & 1-1-0, respectively)
                            Second Criteria = League Wins:
                            Utica beats Manhattanville & LVC with 11 (vs. 10 & 10)
                            - Utica takes the Top Seed

                            Second Seed:
                            First criteria = H2H:
                            Stevenson beats both Manhattanville & LVC (2-0-0 & 1-0-1, respectively)
                            - Stevenson takes the Second Seed

                            Third Seed:
                            First criteria = H2H:
                            Manhattanville beats LVC (2-0-0)
                            - Manhattanville takes the Third Seed


                            Also... EDIT - Just realized a silly math error in the prior analysis ... corrected!! ...but just switched who-plays-who in the Utica/Elmira Win scenario.
                            Head to head doesn't work that way. You look at the record among the tied teams. Who has the most points in the games among the 4. It may be that Utica wins that, but you don't do it pairwise. Best record wins. If ties remain, you go back to that among the teams remaining tied.

                            How many points does Utica have in games with STV, MHT, LVC
                            How many points does Stevenson have in games with UTC,MHT,LVC
                            How many points does Manhattanville have in games with UTC,STV,LVC
                            How many points does LVC. have in games with UTC,MHT,LVC

                            If there is a winner that is it. If three or. two teams remain go back.

                            If HTH doesn't break the tie, then go to Conf wins.
                            Last edited by NUProf; 02-17-2018, 01:12 PM.
                            2007-2008 ECAC East/NESCAC Interlock Pick 'em winner
                            2007-2008 Last Person Standing Winner,
                            2013-2014 Last Person Standing Winner (tie)
                            2016-2017 Last Person Standing Winner

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                            • #44
                              Re: UCHC Standings

                              Originally posted by NUProf View Post
                              Head to head doesn't work that way. You look at the record among the tied teams. Who has the most points in the games among the 4. It may be that Utica wins that, but you don't do it pairwise. Best record wins. If ties remain, you go back to that among the teams remaining tied.

                              How many points does Utica have in games with STV, MHT, LVC
                              How many points does Stevenson have in games with UTC,MHT,LVC
                              How many points does Manhattanville have in games with UTC,STV,LVC
                              How many points does LVC. have in games with UTC,MHT,LVC

                              If there is a winner that is it. If three or. two teams remain go back.

                              If HTH doesn't break the tie, then go to Conf wins.
                              Conference wins is apparently the salient tiebreaker, as UC has already locked-up the top seed. A point or more today means they'll finish alone in 1st.
                              Last edited by Fishman'81; 02-17-2018, 02:53 PM.

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                              • #45
                                Re: UCHC Standings

                                After 2 Elmira and Manhattanville are tied 2-2 and Neumann leads LVC 3-1.
                                2016-2017 ECAC West Pick 'em Champion
                                2013-2014 SUNYAC Pick 'em Champion
                                2012-2013 NCHAMIACMCHA Pick 'em Champion
                                2003-2004 SUNYAC Pick 'em Champion
                                2004 Recipient of “The Poster Formerly Known as Mr. Hockey”’s Punxsutawney Phil Award for Outstanding Prognostication.
                                2005-2018 Administrator of ECAC West Pick 'em & UCHC Pick 'em, the original D-III pick'em game; RIP
                                2009 D-III TOP runner-up
                                Wisconsin Hockey - NCAA Men's National Champions
                                1973, 1977, 1981*, 1983*, 1990, 2006

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