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UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale

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  • Originally posted by NCAA watcher View Post
    The only "inside" knowledge is from cues we see. Max Gilson, who should be leading the rebuilding and have bought in to the new direction, had his brother commit elsewhere.
    Jason Miller, one of Souza's first recruits, and another of the new vanguard, quit after a semester.
    Drew Commesso, the first young star recruited by Souza watched for a half year and Decommitted.

    So, it's not only the on ice product screams of unhappiness.
    Great post. I think you nailed it. We don't know the dynamics happening behind the scenes. A toxic environment may be the factor. We all know the last two years had a schedule solely committed to the purpose of getting 600 wins. When it became apparent the goal was in jeopardy did friction/confusion between coaching styles rear its ugly head? I get it, UNH is not the most talented team, but having only 1 win in the the last 17 games is beyond comprehension. It is more than just about talent. A clear direction appears to be lacking and it may be frustrating to the players.
    Last edited by scoreboard; 02-17-2018, 12:29 AM.

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    • Originally posted by scoreboard View Post
      Great post. I think you nailed it. We don't know the dynamics happening behind the scenes. A toxic environment may be the factor. We all know the last two years had a schedule solely committed to the purpose of getting 600 wins. When it became apparent the goal was in jeopardy did friction/confusion between coaching styles rear its ugly head? I get it, UNH is not the most talented team, but having only 1 win in the the last 17 games is beyond comprehension. It is more than just about talent. A clear direction appears to be lacking and it may be frustrating to the players.
      Interesting points....like the team is in limbo or something...they deserve so much more.
      Last edited by HockeyRef; 02-17-2018, 12:38 AM.
      Here we go 'Cats!!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NCAA watcher View Post
        The only "inside" knowledge is from cues we see. Max Gilson, who should be leading the rebuilding and have bought in to the new direction, had his brother commit elsewhere.
        Jason Miller, one of Souza's first recruits, and another of the new vanguard, quit after a semester.
        Drew Commesso, the first young star recruited by Souza watched for a half year and Decommitted.

        So, it's not only the on ice product screams of unhappiness.
        Max Gilson? Jason Miller?

        I get it; names have been changed to protect the innocent.

        Comment


        • Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale

          Originally posted by JB View Post
          Cash cows that go unfed become dead cows...

          The story of the UNH athletic department.
          They managed to steal the dead librarian 's millions for athletics, so what's the big deal about one or two dead cows?

          Who knew stripping an already uninterested 68 year old coach of the only guy doing heavy lifting for the program, and replacing him with a kid having only four years of experience at bottom-feeder teams was not a winning formula?

          (well, other than Bomberhockey)
          Originally posted by bomberhockey
          05-31-2015, 03:55 PM. Big changes coming to UNH. Careful what you wish for!!
          or Greg
          Originally posted by Greg A View Post
          June 10, 2015
          I can't believe that this is true, that when the hiring of Souza is announced, it will also be announced that Umile will be retiring the year after next, to be replaced with someone with a record that is as thin as Souza's is. Mind you, I think Mike is a great guy, at least he was in all the interactions I had with him back when he was a player. And I do think he is an earnest, hard working, up-and-comer. But to think that he would be anointed the new coach would be mind boggling to me. It would lead me to ask Marty Scarano, what happened to the notion that you would only hire someone with Division 1 head coach experience? If Umile was going to designate someone as his successor, why wouldn't it be the man who has been his chief recruiter for the last 12 years rather than someone who is just establishing himself. Just doesn't make any sense.
          Originally posted by Greg A View Post
          June 10, 2015
          Getting your foot in the door and being anointed the successor are, to me, two different things. As I said before, Umile announcing his retirement and naming as his successor an assistant at three different D1 schools, none of which have had any level of success, would fly in the face of what I always thought would be a search focused on head coaches with D1 coaching experience. Again, it would be mind boggling.

          or Chuck Murray
          Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
          Pretty much agree, and strongly agree with the part in bold.
          Oh well, Marty, that call could have gone either way.
          Last edited by NCAA watcher; 02-17-2018, 07:28 AM.
          The Souza record:
          15-16 10th place
          16-17 10th place
          17-18 11th place
          18-19 8th place
          19-20 9th place
          20-21 10th place
          21-22 9th place
          22-23 10th place

          Comment


          • Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale

            Originally posted by NCAA watcher View Post
            The only "inside" knowledge is from cues we see. Max Gilson, who should be leading the rebuilding and have bought in to the new direction, had his brother commit elsewhere.
            Jason Miller, one of Souza's first recruits, and another of the new vanguard, quit after a semester.
            Drew Commesso, the first young star recruited by Souza watched for a half year and Decommitted.

            So, it's not only the on ice product screams of unhappiness.
            Serious question, from a different viewpoint ... does Coach Umile have a legitimate basis to be disappointed (at the very least) with the performance to date of Coach Souza? And to a lesser degree, Coach Stewart??

            Several of us (myself included) were pushing Coach Umile to bring in new blood in the latter years of his tenure. Maybe he was late to the party, and maybe it was pushed on him by BS35+5 ... and clearly, the choice of Souza over Stewart (and to bypass a national search) has to be laid at Coach Umile's doorstep. But considering all that ... I can't help but think that down deep, Umile has to be disappointed at just how little support he's gotten from his current assistants - and especially from Souza. Thoughts?

            In other news ... across to the other side of the state, Coach Gaudet reached his own personal NRN (300) last night with a 3-2 win over Clarkson. It's taken him just over 20 seasons, and trucking along at pretty much a .500 pace ... just goes to show that while I kid around about The Quest and the NRN etc. it's no small accomplishment to get where Coach Umile is, just shy of twice Gaudet's haul. Just putting that out there for some balance.
            Sworn Enemy of the Perpetually Offended
            Montreal Expos Forever ...

            Comment


            • Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale

              Originally posted by chickod View Post
              That's a fair assessment. I was just wondering if someone had "inside" knowledge that (lack of talent notwithstanding, because they're not mutually exclusive) in addition there was something going on which was prompting the players to mail it in. I wasn't accusing them of "not trying." It can be difficult (no matter how much one tries to convince oneself) to give 100% in a hopeless situation, even if one thinks they are. So if the coaches were creating some atmosphere that was not conducive to optimum effort, that's all I was asking/speculating. If you say they are trying as hard as they can, I will take your word for it.

              The whole situation is really a shame and I sincerely hope they get it fixed, but someone has to take charge and own it.
              Too strong, but not by much. Not disagreeing on the talent or the meritocracy, but there is more going on than on ice talent. It is up to the coaches to fix it.

              BTW - CK (Fr) is on the 1st line, McAdams (Fr) is on the 2nd line. Maas (Fr)/Gildon (Fr) are on the 1st/2nd defensive pairings with 2 Seniors on the 3rd pairing.
              Last edited by Darius; 02-17-2018, 08:10 AM.
              I will not be out cheered in my own building.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Darius View Post
                Too strong.
                Agreed. I guess what I meant was “demoralized.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
                  Serious question, from a different viewpoint ... does Coach Umile have a legitimate basis to be disappointed (at the very least) with the performance to date of Coach Souza? And to a lesser degree, Coach Stewart??

                  Several of us (myself included) were pushing Coach Umile to bring in new blood in the latter years of his tenure. Maybe he was late to the party, and maybe it was pushed on him by BS35+5 ... and clearly, the choice of Souza over Stewart (and to bypass a national search) has to be laid at Coach Umile's doorstep. But considering all that ... I can't help but think that down deep, Umile has to be disappointed at just how little support he's gotten from his current assistants - and especially from Souza. Thoughts?
                  Doesn't this also have the recruiting under current. Who picked these two assistants? These two relatively inexperienced assistants... Neither with any sort of pedigree.

                  You can not feed the cow by not buying feed (unwilling to pay experienced assistants) or by being lazy and not remembering to feed it (not putting in the work to find the right assistants).

                  Now it is ok to get guys that need a little polishing to shine. That means being willing to do the work... It takes a lot of cleaning, grinding, sanding and buffing to make things shine. It is hard work, the same hard work in coaching up players (and assistants).

                  The problem seems top leadership isn't making sure the AD and head coach are self aware and accountable.
                  Last edited by JB; 02-17-2018, 08:29 AM.
                  "Now Progress Takes Away What Forever Took To Find" Dave Matthews Band, The Dreaming Tree

                  Comment


                  • Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale

                    Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
                    Serious question, from a different viewpoint ... does Coach Umile have a legitimate basis to be disappointed (at the very least) with the performance to date of Coach Souza? And to a lesser degree, Coach Stewart??

                    Several of us (myself included) were pushing Coach Umile to bring in new blood in the latter years of his tenure. Maybe he was late to the party, and maybe it was pushed on him by BS35+5 ... and clearly, the choice of Souza over Stewart (and to bypass a national search) has to be laid at Coach Umile's doorstep. But considering all that ... I can't help but think that down deep, Umile has to be disappointed at just how little support he's gotten from his current assistants - and especially from Souza. Thoughts?
                    Again, guessing from tea leaves. First, I doubt Marty knew who Souza was, so the choice was driven by, not pushed on him, Umile. From the snippets we heard, my current understanding is that Umile had a "lifetime" contract, which sounds like it was a 10 year deal in 2000, followed by automatic (Mutual options?) five year renewals. After 2010, Borek thought he was next in line after the five year deal expired and Umile retired. Instead, Umile wanted to stay on in 2015, and as a compromise to a five year renewal, Marty got him to agree to a three year deal but with the promise it had to have a fixed transition. Umile picked Souza and Borek left.

                    Second, Umile has never mentored any young coaches. He has given fatherly advice, been the Don to put in a good word for former players at Brown, but has never (to my knowledge) actually worked with youngsters, as volunteer assistants (I think Bragnalo might have had that title one year, but was mostly administrative). So Umile really had no sense of how these guys actually coach. He plays golf with them, etc. Not sure what expectations he had, other than what we hear from Souza, who seems to share Umile's view that the program is on autopilot, and will succeed regardless of recruiting effort. (Notice the recent article of Tirone while talking up his relationship with Umile, says he barely spoke to him before he arrived at UNH, and that it was Borek who was his sole contact. That is entirely consistent with a view that "someone" brings guys onto campus, and Umile just gets on the ice five times a week, and whistles sharply two days a week.) Does he have any expectations about Souza, or could he even mentor him about how to recruit? I mean hell, we put ourselves back into our fourth year in our profession, and think about all of what you didn't know, let alone becoming (a) the face of the program while (b) being deferential to the guy who got you the job. It was an impossible situation.

                    So, to be disappointed, Umile would have had to have some comprehension of what is needed (which he didn't have), and some expectation from working with him (which he didn't have), and have some tolerance for an alfa male who would assert his own stamp on the program (which it seems neither Umile nor Souza actually expected to happen in the three years -- the thing would just roll along and at year 3 Souza would be handed the keys of a purring engine.)


                    Edit: the basic error in 2015 was how they viewed the succession. You either try for continuity, or "new sherif." UNH saw itself as on a good track so needing continuity. Most of us saw a downward trend, needing a "new blood."
                    They are now locked into a "continuity" narrative, with a guy making efforts to see lots of recruits everywhere (effort is not the issue), but who is trying to hand out business cards thinking UNH will sell itself, and selling a "continuity" to recruits who want no part of that. If you read Souza's recruiting interview, he thinks they are a "blue chip" not a "dot com," not realizing they are Kodak dying blue chip, and need to become Snapfish "dot com." They need someone to come in from the outside who can claim to be coming in to clean up the mess. That is where Lassonde and his estrangement from this mess would come in.
                    Last edited by NCAA watcher; 02-17-2018, 09:50 AM.
                    The Souza record:
                    15-16 10th place
                    16-17 10th place
                    17-18 11th place
                    18-19 8th place
                    19-20 9th place
                    20-21 10th place
                    21-22 9th place
                    22-23 10th place

                    Comment


                    • Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale

                      Seems there isn't a strategy (how we win? big picture)...

                      There also isn't any self awareness, voice of reason bring in the cold bucket of water that is reality.
                      "Now Progress Takes Away What Forever Took To Find" Dave Matthews Band, The Dreaming Tree

                      Comment


                      • Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale

                        Fair comments, JB and 'Watcher. Now add this to the mix ... assuming it was Umile's call, let's remember he wasn't the first HE head coach to hire Souza out of relative obscurity. That would be my bestest bud Luce down in Storrs. And Luce would not have had any prior extended experience of coaching/working with Souza. So clearly, one would think Luce saw something in Souza, and IIRC he also boosted him up to Assistant Head Coach (or something like that?) shortly before he left to come back here.

                        Say what you will about Luce ... but it's not like he was without available options from his long-term connections at The Heights. Yet he was sold on Souza as a hire after two brief non-descript seasons with Brown.

                        Not giving Umile a mulligan on this by any stretch ... but it's hard not to think that with his experience with Souza the Player (came up big in the biggest games), and watching him climb the ranks elsewhere as Souza the Coach, there were some expectations that seem not to have come to fruition ... yet anyway.

                        And the unsettling thing is (as others have pointed out), it seems like Souza has badly misread his alma mater's current standing in the D-1 universe, and now he's dug himself a (deep) hole that he might not be able to extricate himself from. Or, not until he "sees the light" and resets what he's doing, the message and tenor he's selling out there, and turns the tide. But, is it too late already? Seems strange to be saying that, when he won't be HC until next Fall. Another question for another day, I suppose. But it's hard not to think three years have largely been squandered at this point. Hope I'm wrong, but ...
                        Sworn Enemy of the Perpetually Offended
                        Montreal Expos Forever ...

                        Comment


                        • Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale

                          Bottom line, I think we expected more. I know I did. And I feel I've been realistic. Of course, there's always the HE tournament to see if there's anything to be truly happy with for this season that started out with so much promise. Yeah I get it about the:

                          1. Schedule, ease of
                          2. Talent on the Ice

                          But as a fan I want to see a team that pulls it out, doesn't consistently get themselves in 2 goal deficits, loses the game when they are up by 3, game in, game out. Is that really too much to ask for? That's what great, heck, even good, teams do. They find a way to win when it matters most. When there's home ice to be had (no matter how you judge that tournament. Hear that next year, it's going to go back to the top 8 which, I totally agree with. And if UNH doesn't make inroads then, it will be a moot point. Talk about how it feels to be out of the NCAA tournament? Just wait til they sit out the HE tournament....let that sink in.)

                          Ok, if we just don't have it, we just don't have it. One of those years. The darkest moment is right before the dawn. But will it be different? This isn't unique to this team. I've seen this play out in some way, shape or form, the past 5 seasons, even with some decent talent. Show me Coach Souza that you can build teams that have grit, do not give up, and i will be your very best field soldier. Show me more of the same, then I just can't give the energy to it I have. Wish i could be one of those super fans that see it as "part of the deal when you're a fan".

                          I apologize; I thought I could be one of those fans. I'm really trying to be. At the same time, guess what? I honestly can handle losing; it's ok. Teams lose. But your fans honestly CARE about these athletes and really, really wonder if we got the best out of them at times. We're wiling to travel far and wide to watch your team play. I think that's fair. But I'm just one fan, that's all. There's others tho...that want, and expect the same. Is anyone listening? And one other thing...you can have all of 'dollar dog nights' you want at the 'Whitt. That's not what the fans want, but thanks anyways.

                          Just unbelievable how this season has gone; those of you who speak of the lack of talent, they are just bad, etc...did you really, honestly see it as playing out the way it has?? I mean...how hard was it going to be to win 14 games this season/you know, the NRN? Aren't you just the little bit surprised by this? Sorry, I am just plain disappointed. And I think I can be a realist about the situation. What brought me to start watching/following the team in 2013/2014 is missing; and it's not just winning those games. That part is the worst; watching a team that can do some good things, even some great things, just go through the motions. A self fulfilling prophecy.

                          Lace up those skates 'Cats...NU's coming.
                          Last edited by HockeyRef; 02-17-2018, 10:29 AM.
                          Here we go 'Cats!!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by HockeyRef View Post
                            those of you who speak of the lack of talent, they are just bad, etc...did you really, honestly see it as playing out the way it has?? I mean...how hard was it going to be to win 14 games this season/you know, the NRN? Aren't you just the little bit surprised by this?
                            THAT was my point. You expressed it more accurately (and succinctly) than did I.

                            Comment


                            • Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale

                              I’m at a loss to understand why so many commenters are shocked and dismayed about Umile’s approach to recruiting once he became head coach. More than once he told me and other FOH board members that he was comfortable in delegating these responsibilities to his assistants. He had a lot of faith in McCloskey, Serino, and Lassonde, and why not, every year during the 90s they were bringing in players better than the ones who left. Why would he not think that this could on forever. As the years went by, the less hands on he was. I’ll always remember the first time I talked to him about Haydar, probably after the game at BU, his first playing with Krog when he had a couple of goals. Umile’s comment was that he didn’t realize how small Haydar was. Fast forward 17 years later and hear his comments about Patrick Grasso, that he reminded him of Haydar. In both instances these comments clearly indicate that he never saw the player until they had stepped onto the ice at the Whit. I’ve said this many times before, that he was not a hands on recruiter. During the 20 or so years I was on the FOH board I never recall him talking about a recruiting trip to the USHL or BCHL. He would make trips down to Boston during the HNIB days but channeling his inner Jerry York? Never.

                              At this point all we can hope for is that, first, Souza selects as an assistant someone who has any kind of positive track record. Someone who is comfortable being on the road. And, second, we have to hope that he is just more engaged than Umile during practices and on the bench during games. We need to hope Souza is, bottom line, hands on.

                              Comment


                              • Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale

                                Originally posted by Darius View Post
                                Too strong, but not by much. Not disagreeing on the talent or the meritocracy, but there is more going on than on ice talent. It is up to the coaches to fix it.
                                .
                                We thought that at Maine also, we got a goalie and some guys who can score(I'm still not convinced on that) and all of sudden Maine wins. Coaching is part of it but you can't win without talent. UNH hasn't got much from the games I've seen.

                                Interesting to see you guys follow Maine down the shi tter. Notice how awful HE is now, Maine and UNH have taken the whole league down
                                I swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell.

                                Maine Hockey Love it or Leave it

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