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Thread: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    I did. I capitalized They.
    Cool. It’s ok the cia expects 100 senators to vote on an appointee with about 15% of the information. Very intelligent.

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Almost as cool as that tin foil fedora. Almost

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Almost as cool as that tin foil fedora. Almost
    Do you actually read and absorb what you read or are you obsessed (like many republicans) with calling “conspiracy theory” at everything?
    If you read then you know, Haspel and the cia are withholding a TON of information from congress. If you’re good with that you live in a world I don’t want to be part of.

    Welcome to 1984.

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    DX is not a Republican...nor is everyone who thinks you wear a tinfoil hat
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    Quote Originally Posted by solovsfett View Post
    Do you actually read and absorb what you read or are you obsessed (like many republicans) with calling “conspiracy theory” at everything?
    If you read then you know, Haspel and the cia are withholding a TON of information from congress. If you’re good with that you live in a world I don’t want to be part of.

    Welcome to 1984.
    Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    DX is not a Republican...nor is everyone who thinks you wear a tinfoil hat
    Ah, my bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    Link?
    "The Rising Sun" by John Toland is one source.

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    It's gotta be in the brain. It's such a distinct difference of beings. I can't crawl into a beta brain. I assume they can't crawl into mine.
    See: Stanley Milgram Experiment, 1961.
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by aparch View Post
    See: Stanley Milgram Experiment, 1961.
    Yeah, the problem isn't that of two different types of brain, we being of one type, and they being of another. It's that it's incomprehensible to us that our own brains are of the same type as theirs.

    Virtually every person in the Milgram experiments, (which have been repeated in various ways since) regardless of background, delivers a potentially lethal shock to a fellow human being for no morally defensible reason at all.
    We regularly abhor what someone else has done in a given set of circumstances, yet fail to comprehend at all that we ourselves*, when placed in a similar circumstance, would be very, very likely to act in the same terrible manner.

    * meaning all of you. I myself would, of course, act honorably.
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    https://t.co/2tSW1WmwQ4?amp=1



    EDIT: stocks up on tin foil and thinner😆
    Last edited by solovsfett; 05-15-2018 at 11:03 AM.

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton View Post
    Yeah, the problem isn't that of two different types of brain, we being of one type, and they being of another. It's that it's incomprehensible to us that our own brains are of the same type as theirs.

    Virtually every person in the Milgram experiments, (which have been repeated in various ways since) regardless of background, delivers a potentially lethal shock to a fellow human being for no morally defensible reason at all.
    We regularly abhor what someone else has done in a given set of circumstances, yet fail to comprehend at all that we ourselves*, when placed in a similar circumstance, would be very, very likely to act in the same terrible manner.

    * meaning all of you. I myself would, of course, act honorably.
    I think there likely are different brains, in the sense that conservatives were dropped on their head as children or their parents had fetal alcohol syndrome or something, but Milgram was about deference to authority (the degree, the lab coat, the structure of the experiment) and the results were devastatingly uniform.

    One of the scariest results from Milgram was that education and intelligence made no difference in the reluctance (or not) of the subjects from torturing. This is not at all what I would have expected, and in fact is so incongruous (and unreplicated for obvious human subject reasons) that it feels like a wrong result to me, but... there it is.
    Last edited by Kepler; 05-15-2018 at 10:36 AM.
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Oh boy. This could be fun.
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    No moon sighting yet....

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Oh boy. This could be fun.
    The Trumpers/Bots replying to that are...special.
    "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    The Trumpers/Bots replying to that are...special.
    Will they release it along with the birth certificate and whitey tape?

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by French Rage View Post
    Will they release it along with the birth certificate and whitey tape?
    I do like seeing the Bush Hate is still strong among the Dumpies.
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I think there likely are different brains, in the sense that conservatives were dropped on their head as children or their parents had fetal alcohol syndrome or something, but Milgram was about deference to authority (the degree, the lab coat, the structure of the experiment) and the results were devastatingly uniform.

    One of the scariest results from Milgram was that education and intelligence made no difference in the reluctance (or not) of the subjects from torturing. This is not at all what I would have expected, and in fact is so incongruous (and unreplicated for obvious human subject reasons) that it feels like a wrong result to me, but... there it is.
    Getting far afield here but in my college years I tended bar and also sold stuff door to door for a while. The former allows a great opportunity to observe people and the latter was probably worth more than any 20 courses in psychology and human behavior. As it turns out, people are very easy to manipulate. Even the well educated/highly intelligent who are often more susceptible to certain logical arguments and also generally posses a high self-confidence in their ability to assess a situation for what it "really" is. Naturally, this can be used against them. And once smart folks reach the tipping point, they aren't as likely to go back as they usually have a strong confidence about (their perception of) the facts that a less educated or intelligent person doesn't as easily arrive at.

    Anyway, the basis of all sales is the simple rule that everyone will agree to an action the moment the perceived benefit outweighs the perceived cost. As far as I have observed, there's no upper limit to this rule -- You, me, everyone -- We would all readily agree even to commit murder so long as these conditions are arranged. (because, of course, this is the basic formula for decision making. ) For some individuals, the introduction of an accomplice often reduces the perceived cost to an action by half. But the introduction of authority to the equation lowers the cost perception factor to as low as zero for some, but at the least, it reduces perceived cost by more than half for virtually everyone. So an action that had initially required a benefit of 10, is reduced to perhaps only needing to meet a measly benefit of 3 to be readily undertaken.

    My feeling is, this is why Milgram works, shocking (pun) as it may be. And being smart just doesn't help enough in determining that a concrete fact is not, in reality, a fact at all. From my experience I'd say people who are immune to the experiment would be very rare. (Perhaps the Dalai Lama or maybe John Wayne for very different reasons) I myself don't find it surprising though. It doesn't necessarily suggest people are uniformly evil or uncaring, but rather are uniformly very poor at correctly assessing situations and/or making decisions under certain kinds of circumstances. Because whether those circumstances are arranged or come about by chance doesn't matter, I personally have found it's always been very useful to be suspicious of certainty wherever it's found.
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton View Post
    Getting far afield here but in my college years I tended bar and also sold stuff door to door for a while. The former allows a great opportunity to observe people and the latter was probably worth more than any 20 courses in psychology and human behavior. As it turns out, people are very easy to manipulate. Even the well educated/highly intelligent who are often more susceptible to certain logical arguments and also generally posses a high self-confidence in their ability to assess a situation for what it "really" is. Naturally, this can be used against them. And once smart folks reach the tipping point, they aren't as likely to go back as they usually have a strong confidence about (their perception of) the facts that a less educated or intelligent person doesn't as easily arrive at.

    Anyway, the basis of all sales is the simple rule that everyone will agree to an action the moment the perceived benefit outweighs the perceived cost. As far as I have observed, there's no upper limit to this rule -- You, me, everyone -- We would all readily agree even to commit murder so long as these conditions are arranged. (because, of course, this is the basic formula for decision making. ) For some individuals, the introduction of an accomplice often reduces the perceived cost to an action by half. But the introduction of authority to the equation lowers the cost perception factor to as low as zero for some, but at the least, it reduces perceived cost by more than half for virtually everyone. So an action that had initially required a benefit of 10, is reduced to perhaps only needing to meet a measly benefit of 3 to be readily undertaken.

    My feeling is, this is why Milgram works, shocking (pun) as it may be. And being smart just doesn't help enough in determining that a concrete fact is not, in reality, a fact at all. From my experience I'd say people who are immune to the experiment would be very rare. (Perhaps the Dalai Lama or maybe John Wayne for very different reasons) I myself don't find it surprising though. It doesn't necessarily suggest people are uniformly evil or uncaring, but rather are uniformly very poor at correctly assessing situations and/or making decisions under certain kinds of circumstances. Because whether those circumstances are arranged or come about by chance doesn't matter, I personally have found it's always been very useful to be suspicious of certainty wherever it's found.
    This is a great post. Thank you for taking the time.
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  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton View Post
    And once smart folks reach the tipping point, they aren't as likely to go back as they usually have a strong confidence about (their perception of) the facts that a less educated or intelligent person doesn't as easily arrive at.
    Dunning-Kruger called and disagrees with this assessment.

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    Dunning-Kruger called and disagrees with this assessment.
    No, it doesn't. Dunning-Krueger says that if your IQ is 80 you may think it's 100. If it's 150 you may think it's 130. It doesn't say that if you're just ordinary dumb you think you're Einstein. Or conversely, if you are in fact Einstein, it doesn't say you're not aware you're still smarter than the average bear.
    Quote Originally Posted by WiscTJK View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy A View Post
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