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Thread: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    And, for those whose spittle is now all over your screen, being pro life and pro death penalty are compatible stances.
    No, no they're not. And the Church recognizes that.

  2. #302
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    The death penalty is justified if the state finds compelling evidence that a crime shocks the conscience of the community sufficiently enough to kill a criminal. Cases in point
    Timothy McVeigh
    John Allen Muhammad
    "When it is a question of the execution of a condemned man, the State does not dispose of the individual's right to life. In this case it is reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned person of the enjoyment of life in expiation of his crime when, by his crime, he has already disposed himself of his right to live."

    -Pope Pius XII


    "Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person"

    -Pope John Paul II


    "Today the death penalty is inadmissible, no matter how serious the crime committed."

    -Pope Francis


    Until Pope Francis, the Church had been pretty clear that they were willing to allow diversity of opinion within the flock on capital punishment. It is, IMO, a hypocritical view to maintain in any organization or individual that professes to be "pro-life". Capital punishment is essentially a form of playing God.

    Personally, I think a death sentence is justified in some rare circumstances, but I also don't consider myself pro-life, nor am I a believer. Therefore, my views are consistent.
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  3. #303
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    [I]

    -Pope Pius XII

    -Pope John Paul II

    -Pope Francis


    Until Pope Francis, the Church had been pretty clear that they were willing to allow diversity of opinion within the flock on capital punishment. It is, IMO, a hypocritical view to maintain in any organization or individual that professes to be "pro-life". Capital punishment is essentially a form of playing God.

    Personally, I think a death sentence is justified in some rare circumstances, but I also don't consider myself pro-life, nor am I a believer. Therefore, my views are consistent.
    pope's are people. people are complicated

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    I thought Popes have God's email address or something. Aren't they supposed to be infallible?

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Bolton says the US government might level sanctions on European countries that do business with Iran.

    So...we might sanction our allies for remaining in an agreement when we went rogue, at the same time we're bailing out a Chinese company...wait for it... for trading with Iran.

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    I thought Popes have God's email address or something. Aren't they supposed to be infallible?
    This is pretty widely misunderstood. It's only when the Pope is speaking "ex cathedra" (from the chair) on doctrine. I don't think it's even entirely certain how many times this has happened in history, but at best it's only been a few times in the last 500 years. I think the last time was in 1950 regarding the Assumption of Mary. Otherwise Catholics are simply supposed to give the Pope's words "due respect".
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton View Post
    This is pretty widely misunderstood. It's only when the Pope is speaking "ex cathedra" (from the chair) on doctrine. I don't think it's even entirely certain how many times this has happened in history, but at best it's only been a few times in the last 500 years. I think the last time was in 1950 regarding the Assumption of Mary. Otherwise Catholics are simply supposed to give the Pope's words "due respect".
    There are only two instances formally recognized, both oddly enough about Mary and not Jesus:

    1854: http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/p9ineff.htm (The Immaculate Conception, a.k.a. "Heeeeeere's Mary!" )

    1950: http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/p12munif.htm (The Assumption, a.k.a. "Mary out!")

    However, it's not entirely true that the Pope is only infallible when speaking ex cathedra. He is infallible when speaking of "authoritative teachings" (his authority is called the "Magisterium") and that happens all the time. But by definition those are not new pieces of information, but recapitulation of doctrine. But it's important to understand that Catholics are bound (literally) to believe and espouse that doctrine -- you don't get to decide.

    I think the dogma laid down under the seal of Magisterium is identical with the Catechism, but I'm not sure. I suspect joe knows; he's down with the King.

    God bless Catholic school and a mother who taught it.

    Edit:

    Here are the Catechism professions which refer to the Magisterium:

    85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ." This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

    86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."

    88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.
    <-- I love this: this is the Papal "Necessary and Proper Clause"

    93 "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),. . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."

    95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."

    100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.
    Last edited by Kepler; 05-14-2018 at 07:34 AM.
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Oh. So it's a magic chair or something? Why not make the chair pope and eliminate the middle-man?

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    Oh. So it's a magic chair or something? Why not make the chair pope and eliminate the middle-man?
    "Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!"
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Not many embassy openings have a body count.

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    Not many embassy openings have a body count.
    Doin' a heckuva job, Dumpy.

    Israeli forces have killed 41 Palestinians and wounded at least 900 in Gaza, health officials said, as troops fired bullets at residents protesting against the Monday opening of the US embassy in Jerusalem.

    Tens of thousands turned out across the coastal enclave in what soon became the bloodiest day in Gaza since the 2014 war. Close to 40 of the casualties were critically injured and the dead included a 14-year-old boy, medics said.

    The sky along the frontier was blackened with thick smoke as protesters lit tyres. Intermittent sniper fire was heard and crowds of protesters were seen rushing towards the fence.

    Around 60 miles away in an affluent neighbourhood of Jerusalem, Washington’s ambassador, David Friedman, stood on a stage painted with the US flag and welcomed a delegation of US and Israeli VIPs, including the president’s daughter, Ivanka.

    “Today’s historic event is attributed to the vision, courage, and moral clarity of one person to whom we owe an enormous and eternal debt of gratitude: President Donald J Trump,” Friedman told the crowed to cheers and a standing ovation.
    We do what we must because we can
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    I donít understand the intentional flipped bird by Trump with this embassy garbage. Whatís worse is our 4th estate is so cowed by the power elite they simply obscure the truth of whatís happening in Gaza like itís nothing.

    ...in other news, Gary Webb was right: https://t.co/aUFnt6CpZE?amp=1

  13. #313
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    Not many embassy openings have a body count.
    I'm stealing this.

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    And, for those whose spittle is now all over your screen, being pro life and pro death penalty are compatible stances.
    Personally, I'd look to the Catechism, specifically 2267.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...m/p3s2c2a5.htm
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  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    Personally, I'd look to the Catechism, specifically 2267.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...m/p3s2c2a5.htm
    "Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.""

    You're right, we should look to that.

    Given that we know innocent people have been put to death and that the death penalty is not applied anywhere close to evenly across the population, the catechism specifics it shouldn't be used.

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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    You're right, we should look to that.
    I agree; however, if we have someone in a SuperMax and they somehow still order a "hit" it should be over because we are clearly not "rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm" in that hopefully only-hypothetical case.

    Then again, I don't see how anyone in prison should live any better than the folks lowest on the socio-economic system who are law abiding. If they don't have cable or internet and eat Ramon three nights a week ... well, folks in prison should have (or not) the same. I'm not saying "Turkish", but I am saying limit the creature comforts. Prison should be someplace you really don't want to be.
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    The death penalty is verboten unless you're a Cafeteria Catholic.
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  18. #318
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Yes, let's create more unrest in the Middle East. Good plan, Dump.
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    Re: US Foreign Policy 2.0: Have you read Kipling, Mr. Tillerson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    The death penalty is verboten unless you're a Cafeteria Catholic.
    No, no, no, Kep. Read 2267.

    Very rare.
    Practically non-existent.
    But not specifically verboten.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    I agree; however, if we have someone in a SuperMax and they somehow still order a "hit" it should be over because we are clearly not "rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm" in that hopefully only-hypothetical case.

    Then again, I don't see how anyone in prison should live any better than the folks lowest on the socio-economic system who are law abiding. If they don't have cable or internet and eat Ramon three nights a week ... well, folks in prison should have (or not) the same. I'm not saying "Turkish", but I am saying limit the creature comforts. Prison should be someplace you really don't want to be.
    Sure thing, Sheriff Joe.

    Why am I not surprised that, rather than tackle poverty, you'd rather make prison the equivalent of the gulag to save yourself a nickel on your taxes.

    You do realize the prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment is there because people who think the same as you used to do that sort of thing, right?

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