Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

    Originally posted by Rover View Post
    The sentence I highlighted is the key point here. There are lots of programs to try and help, in your particular example, black voters to escape generational poverty. In fact some do. What you tend to overlook is what will happen once Republicans seize total control of the government. What will happen is existing programs will be gutted to pay for tax cuts for the rich and in these particular times racism will be back in vogue. That's the lesson I feel far lefties never learn - they consistently underestimate the depravity of the right and sit back and let them obtain power. Once in power, they will make the lives of these people more miserable whenever they can, because they aren't wealthy GOP donors. With Dems in office, even Joe Manchin, you have a chance at affecting these policies and improving them. With total GOP control, they all get obliterated as we're seeing now. I'm not sure why that notion never seems to resonate the Republicans are pretty much doing exactly what they said they would. People too stupid to recognize that deserve to take it in the shorts. I'm done trying to save people from themselves.
    So the Republicans are getting rid of social programs that help the vulnerable just like Bill Clinton did? Manchin would do what exactly, bring some of those programs back with means testing or some other compromise that does nothing to move the needle? Maaaaaybe not gut those programs further until the incompetent dems try to forge a deal with Republicans? If we're lucky we might even get a $10 minimum wage!

    I mean yeah, Manchin would be the lesser of two evils in this scenario and like I said I'd obviously vote for him since it'd mean no more Trump. But at some point you need a competent Dem party that aggressively pushes us back in the other direction rather than just implementing some half measure while trying to compromise with lunatics who have no interest in helping anyone other than the Koch brothers/Mercers. Just shouting lesser of two evils to horribly disenfranchised potential voters probably isn't a viable strategy.
    Last edited by trixR4kids; 01-19-2018, 12:42 PM.

    Comment


    • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

      Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
      Democrats are all or nothing voters. Republicans are not. Advantage? Republicans.
      Pretty much. Tell a college-aged liberal that the Supreme Court is at stake, and they'll go, "Screw that, what about my student loans and legalizing green?!?!" Tell any conservative the Supreme Court is at stake, and they'll ask you when and where to show up at the polls because we can't be having any more of those "librul judges leguslatin' from duh bench!"

      Comment


      • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

        Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
        Nowhere did I say I won't vote for the lesser of two evils, I'd rather Hillary win and the SC gets tilted in the other direction, trust me.

        But I also realize that people who have known nothing but generational poverty (i.e. the black voters who dems expect to turn out but then do absolutely nothing for) probably aren't going to go out of their way to vote based on that. I find it funny how you act like Bernie needed to do more to get black votes but then supported the candidate who was going to do absolutely nothing for them and were surprised when they didn't turn out and act like the black voters are lazy and stupid. Hmmm....
        Well no offense trix but then they have no one to blame for their current plight than themselves. This isnt a Poli-Sci class he choices people make have real world repercussions.

        A couple years back Real Time had Tom Morello on to speak about some protests he was part of. Morello of course is one of the best musicians around, Harvard educated and a political activist icon. Morello went on a rant about how the parties are the same and how the Dems shouldnt follow Hillary cause she will screw the system and that we need real change and we can only do that by either not voting or voting against the parties. Crowd of course goes nuts. Maher, who loves Morello BTW, flat out disagrees with him. Tom seems a bit taken a back (remember at the time Maher had spent years trying to get Bernie to run so he isnt exactly a Hillary backer) and continues. Maher basically tells Morello how it is easy for him to say that nothing changes and to vote conscience not logic but that for the average person (one who didnt go to Harvard and has made a lot of money in music) those beliefs are dangerous. Morello disagrees. Maher brings up how in Florida they had two bad candidates running for office. Many of the Left stayed home so the GOP candidate won. That candidate helped gut their Medicare/Medicaid and destroyed other social programs. (might havebeen the guy who wanted all Welfare recipients to take drug tests as well) Those people that stayed home out of disgust for the two party system ended up screwing themselves.

        tl;dr: Yeah in theory it makes sense for the disenfranchised to stay home, but in practice you are only guaranteeing you are going to take it in the jaw when the chips are down. And you lose any right to complain about the system.
        "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
        -aparch

        "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
        -INCH

        Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
        -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

        Comment


        • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

          Well no offense trix but then they have no one to blame for their current plight than themselves.
          No not really, they've turned out in the past and continuously received nothing for their efforts, that's the problem. The party just keeps taking their vote for granted while delivering nothing.

          And I'm pretty sure I saw that clip. I think Tom is right in some areas but not the part where he tells people not to vote, that part is stupid and dangerous. I'm not advocating that the disenfranchised don't vote I just understand why it happens and that the strategy needs to reflect that.

          Comment


          • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

            Originally posted by Handyman View Post
            Well no offense trix but then they have no one to blame for their current plight than themselves. This isnt a Poli-Sci class he choices people make have real world repercussions.

            A couple years back Real Time had Tom Morello on to speak about some protests he was part of. Morello of course is one of the best musicians around, Harvard educated and a political activist icon. Morello went on a rant about how the parties are the same and how the Dems shouldnt follow Hillary cause she will screw the system and that we need real change and we can only do that by either not voting or voting against the parties. Crowd of course goes nuts. Maher, who loves Morello BTW, flat out disagrees with him. Tom seems a bit taken a back (remember at the time Maher had spent years trying to get Bernie to run so he isnt exactly a Hillary backer) and continues. Maher basically tells Morello how it is easy for him to say that nothing changes and to vote conscience not logic but that for the average person (one who didnt go to Harvard and has made a lot of money in music) those beliefs are dangerous. Morello disagrees. Maher brings up how in Florida they had two bad candidates running for office. Many of the Left stayed home so the GOP candidate won. That candidate helped gut their Medicare/Medicaid and destroyed other social programs. (might havebeen the guy who wanted all Welfare recipients to take drug tests as well) Those people that stayed home out of disgust for the two party system ended up screwing themselves.

            tl;dr: Yeah in theory it makes sense for the disenfranchised to stay home, but in practice you are only guaranteeing you are going to take it in the jaw when the chips are down. And you lose any right to complain about the system.
            Yup. Astounding how people (mostly Bernie voters but not all) just don't get it. If Dems are in power, you the liberal activist has a chance to influence how they manage these programs. You may not improve them all, but you may improve some of them.

            If the GOP is in power, you will not be influencing how these programs are managed because they will be ELIMINATED!!! So the choice is between possibly changing how the govt cares for people vs the govt doing jack for everyone but the 1%. Again, if you're too stupid to figure this out at this point and continue to underestimate how low the GOP will go, you get what you deserve.
            Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

            Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

            "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

            Comment


            • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

              Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
              My cultural resentments that they're activating? Exactly what would those be? I've stated on here numerous times, I support gay marriage. I think abortion should be an issue of choice for the woman. My position on immigration, which I've posted here multiple times, is probably as liberal as any person in this country. My view is that if you want to move here, welcome. You have to obey our laws, pay taxes, and do everything else the rest of us do. You don't get to vote or get the privileges of citizenship unless you actually go through the process of becoming a citizen, but you're certainly free to apply. Immigration is simply nature telling people to move to a place with a better standard of living, and it's immoral to try to impede that with laws.

              So exactly how, again, is the right activating my cultural buttons?

              I've always viewed all politicians as people looking only for power for themselves and the ability to line their own pockets and the pockets of their friends. Nothing I've seen over my lifetime has changed that opinion.

              But the thing I've found about Republican candidates, for the most part, is they'll tell you exactly how they're going to try to seize that power and steal from me. I also understand that they won't be able to steal everything because someone will oppose the most egregious of the thefts simply for political reasons and the chance to gain power and line their own pockets. I've trusted the Courts to impede their cultural attacks.

              The problem I've found with most Democratic candidates is I really have no idea what I'm getting. I could get a Paul Wellstone who does exactly what he says he'll do. Or I'll get someone who will pander to the 99%, then spend their years in office claiming the reason they haven't actually done what they promised to do is because they've been obstructed every step of the way.

              I always choose the devil I know over the one I don't.
              This post makes way too much sense. I don't know if it's ready for the authoritarians here...

              Comment


              • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                The post makes no sense. Hovey is saying if given a choice between someone who will screw him where the sun don't shine vs someone who he's unsure if they'll screw him where the sun don't shine, he'll choose the first option because at least he knows what's going to happen to him? Okaayyyyy.....
                Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

                Comment


                • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                  Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                  No not really, they've turned out in the past and continuously received nothing for their efforts, that's the problem. The party just keeps taking their vote for granted while delivering nothing.

                  And I'm pretty sure I saw that clip. I think Tom is right in some areas but not the part where he tells people not to vote, that part is stupid and dangerous. I'm not advocating that the disenfranchised don't vote I just understand why it happens and that the strategy needs to reflect that.
                  It's easier to deliver what the Republicans are selling. Much easier. Have you ever seen the Republicans make a hard choice, ever? It's pretty easy to throw the poor, immigrants, and the middle class out the window. It's easy to say Government doesn't work and get people to vote for you. It's hard to say Social Security'/Medicare/Medicaid work and we need more money and here's how and why. Republicans have the easy path. Look at all those people that voted for "Populist Outsider" Donald Trump. Are any of them getting what they voted for, really? No, but he's delivering because he got the easy stuff through (Tax Cuts), screwing the immigrants (Wall, DACA, Travel Ban), and screwing the poor (CHIP isn't even part of this thought process, nor the Republicans).

                  That's all easy. It's easy to say screw it. It's hard to say "let's find a way to make it work better". Hell, the CFPB is another great example.

                  Or, better yet. Tell me one thing he's done since he got into office that built something? Anything? All he's done is tear things down. He hasn't "built" something. Deregulating is easy. Making a regulation that works economically and helps the American People and does the right thing is ****ing hard. Let us know when the GOP does something hard. Then get back to me about whining about how the Democrats never accomplish anything.
                  **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                  Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                  Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                  Comment


                  • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                    Originally posted by Rover View Post
                    The post makes no sense. Hovey is saying if given a choice between someone who will screw him where the sun don't shine vs someone who he's unsure if they'll screw him where the sun don't shine, he'll choose the first option because at least he knows what's going to happen to him? Okaayyyyy.....
                    It makes complete sense.

                    Yes, they say they are going to screw me, although honestly because I've had some breaks along the way a lot of their fiscal policies probably help me more than screw me. But yes, I understand going in that their policies probably aren't economically advantageous for the vast majority of the citizens. But what I also understand is that simple politics are not going to allow them to completely empty the vault. They will never be allowed to go as far as they would like. They could never get a law passed that exempts from taxes all income earned over $20,000 for instance. Even that would be too brazen for enough of them that you couldn't get a majority vote. I do generally favor small government over large.

                    The same way with the cultural issues. Yeah, they're going to pass laws that try to prevent gays from marrying or women from getting abortions. But I also know that the courts are always there to put the breaks on that nonsense.

                    But let's say you're an African American citizen in this country. For 50 years the Democrats have been telling you that they're the ones who are going to make your life better. They're going to lift you out of poverty. They're going to end the racial injustice that exists. The same for the poor.

                    How have you done on that, by the way?

                    The ideals of the Democratic party are a thousand times better than those proposed by the Republican party. Of course. Who doesn't want racial harmony. Who doesn't want for all of us to be economically prosperous instead of just 1% of us.

                    But all you do is promise it. Then, when you don't deliver, you wonder why African Americans or poor white people don't turn out to vote for you in the election, or even worse, vote for Trump.

                    I don't vote for Republican candidates only. I vote strictly on whether I like the person or not, and more importantly, whether I think they're lying to me.

                    I voted for Franken, and would have done so again. In the last election I voted for the Democratic candidate for my congressional seat because I thought the Republican candidate was just plain dumb. But I didn't vote for Governor Dayton. I supported Tim Pawlenty. I voted for McCain, but then I voted for Obama against Romney.
                    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                    Comment


                    • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                      No, it makes no sense. Republicans don't do anything that's hard. Everything is the easy path.
                      **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                      Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                      Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                      Comment


                      • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                        Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                        No not really, they've turned out in the past and continuously received nothing for their efforts, that's the problem. The party just keeps taking their vote for granted while delivering nothing.

                        And I'm pretty sure I saw that clip. I think Tom is right in some areas but not the part where he tells people not to vote, that part is stupid and dangerous. I'm not advocating that the disenfranchised don't vote I just understand why it happens and that the strategy needs to reflect that.
                        No, if you choose to vote against your interests you lose. You dont get extra credit just because you have principles. You can talk about how things need to change all you want to but you dont change things by just letting the other side win. Republicans get that and Democrats dont.

                        Simple math...if one side will give you some of what you want and the other will give you none who do you vote for? If, as is the case under our system, there is no legit third option and is akin to a vote for the other side who do you vote for? 50% is better than 0% basic logic. Democrats who make decisions like that are extremely selfish.

                        This isnt a classroom, the consequences are too important. If Black People in the South cant be bothered to vote for the party that is fighting to keep their right to vote then they can pound sand. If people in Flint, Michigan cant be bothered to vote for President despite the fact that the other party is poisoning their water...well then they can continue to drink it. These people need to start playing chess instead of Candyland. There is way more at stake than their idiotic principles. Their principles handed the government over to the GOP.
                        "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                        -aparch

                        "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                        -INCH

                        Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                        -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                        Comment


                        • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                          Originally posted by Rover View Post
                          The post makes no sense. Hovey is saying if given a choice between someone who will screw him where the sun don't shine vs someone who he's unsure if they'll screw him where the sun don't shine, he'll choose the first option because at least he knows what's going to happen to him? Okaayyyyy.....
                          Jesus I thought I was the only one who read his post and thought he was saying that.
                          "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                          -aparch

                          "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                          -INCH

                          Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                          -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                          Comment


                          • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                            Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                            No, if you choose to vote against your interests you lose. You dont get extra credit just because you have principles. You can talk about how things need to change all you want to but you dont change things by just letting the other side win. Republicans get that and Democrats dont.

                            Simple math...if one side will give you some of what you want and the other will give you none who do you vote for? If, as is the case under our system, there is no legit third option and is akin to a vote for the other side who do you vote for? 50% is better than 0% basic logic. Democrats who make decisions like that are extremely selfish.

                            This isnt a classroom, the consequences are too important. If Black People in the South cant be bothered to vote for the party that is fighting to keep their right to vote then they can pound sand. If people in Flint, Michigan cant be bothered to vote for President despite the fact that the other party is poisoning their water...well then they can continue to drink it. These people need to start playing chess instead of Candyland. There is way more at stake than their idiotic principles. Their principles handed the government over to the GOP.
                            As did decades of dem failure to accomplish anything meaningful that would help them. Maybe if they push another neo-liberal and yell "lesser of two evils!!!" it'll work THIS TIME though

                            And I don't think people aren't voting due to some principle, I think they're doing it because voter suppression basically means you have to magically get a day off from your non-PTO job if you have your birth certificate and the various forms of ID necessary to vote in these **** hole states. And if all you have to offer is the slightly more palatable option that isn't going to do much to fix the core issues you and your community face then they probably aren't going to go through the trouble of voting. You can keep doing the whole self serving "they deserve it" BS but if you care about winning as much as you claim to then maybe try supporting candidates that will energize the base. That's not so much directed at you because you claim to have backed Bernie initially but the neo-lib wing of the party who thinks doing more of the same failed strategy that hasn't worked for 2 decades now can't just keep abdicating responsibility when they're clearly the root cause of the problem. You can act like it's selfish to vote third party and I don't disagree but so is supporting some incrementalist in the primary because FYGM.
                            Last edited by trixR4kids; 01-19-2018, 04:35 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                              Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                              As did decades of dem failure to accomplish anything meaningful that would help them. Maybe if they push another neo-liberal and yell "lesser of two evils!!!" it'll work THIS TIME though

                              And I don't think people aren't voting due to some principle, I think they're doing it because voter suppression basically means you have to magically get a day off from your non-PTO job if you have your birth certificate and the various forms of ID necessary to vote in these **** hole states. And if all you have to offer is the slightly more palatable option that isn't going to do much to fix the core issues you and your community face then they probably aren't going to go through the trouble of voting. You can keep doing the whole self serving "they deserve it" BS but if you care about winning as much as you claim to then maybe try supporting candidates that will energize the base. That's not so much directed at you because you claim to have backed Bernie initially but the neo-lib wing of the party who thinks doing more of the same failed strategy that hasn't worked for 2 decades now can't just keep abdicating responsibility when they're clearly the root cause of the problem. You can act like it's selfish to vote third party and I don't disagree but so is supporting some incrementalist in the primary because FYGM.
                              Oh BS. Dont play that game with me. I have read all the information about voter suppression and that isnt why Dem turnout was so low. Maybe you want to believe that crap but literally no one else does and no actual facts back it up. There was voter suppression but for the general election far more people either voted third party or didnt vote at all. (some just left President blank) Voter suppression did more harm locally. I know that doesnt jibe with your little diatribe but it is the truth. Michigan didnt suppress votes yet Hillary got way less than Obama did. That is the case in almost every state she lost. I wonder why...

                              And dont for a second tell me who I should support and why ok. I was on here touting Bernie and other non-mainstream Dems while you were still a NEWBIE on GPL talking about the PWR. Your little theories and rationalizations arent any sort of breathe of fresh air...they are the same tired rhetoric people have been using for decades and while they sound really cool in a soundbyte or on a t-shirt in the real world they are worthless platitudes that only cause more problems. You may not like the "failed strategy" of the Democratic Party but that "failed strategy" is a lot more successful than the crap the "neo-lib" wing of the party is trying to pull. (8 years of Bill and 8 years of Obama > 0 years of Bernie and the rest of Progressives that have run in my lifetime) Insurrection = automatic loss. Splitting the Party = GOP Controls it All. You want to effect change in the current political scene you dont do it by cutting off your nose to spite your face you do it by winning and fixing it while you have the chance. People need to be dragged Left because they hate change but that is much easier when the leadership is already going that way. The "neo-lib" wing of the party would be in a much better position now if they had just shut their mouths and voted Hillary. They would have had a hand in the agenda, they wouldnt be an after thought watching as the GOP destroys everything they stand for.

                              And trust me, it doesnt make me feel good to write people off but I am done trying to help the people who wont even be bothered to try and help themselves.
                              Last edited by Handyman; 01-19-2018, 06:36 PM.
                              "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                              -aparch

                              "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                              -INCH

                              Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                              -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                              Comment


                              • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                                Well you're wrong
                                http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...election-2016/

                                As for my comments about supporting people who can win, that wasn’t even directed at you so you don’t need to act like an aggrieved habitual Fox viewer about it. And honestly that’s just basic logic.

                                Also these failed platitudes you speak of are those of the most popular politician in the country and have been polling well. So basically everything you just wrote is wrong lmao.

                                For the record the neo-liberal wing of the party is Hillary and Gore and all the other colossal failures the DNC has graced us with over the past 20 years.
                                Last edited by trixR4kids; 01-19-2018, 07:57 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X