Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[solovsfett]

He thought that because we were eventually given the Emperor's background in the prequels that we should also have been given Snoke's background during this trilogy. I'm of the opinion that Snoke's story is irrelevant, that Kylo Ren's/Ben Solo's story is the one that matters for the Dark Side users.

Also, he seemed to be stuck on the idea that the Rule of Two applied to all Dark Siders, rather than just the Sith. I tried to explain to him that the Sith were like a religious order, and not the name for all Dark Siders, but that didn't seem to set with him very well. I think he might have Snoke confused for a Sith lord.

This is very interesting and dovetails with some of my friends who were disappointed for the same reasons. My argument, like yours, is Snoke's origins don't matter. No-one cared about origins for Vader or Palpatine to the level they suddenly care about Snoke.

Also, there are hints with Snoke if people look for them. He's most likely from the Old Republic and was awoken by Palpatine's order 66. But that's neither here nor there to non-fanboys.

I think what has been made clear from the outset is this is Kylo Ren/Ben Solo's story which is why the early marketing favored his image/toys and largely still does.

The other fanboy crap about Luke is childish. As if Ben and Yoda didn't run and hide as well. And they're consistent on Luke: whiny, stubborn, can't learn the lessons without being told explicitly by the wiser Yoda. The difference being Luke took Yoda's advice about learning from failure and "we are what they grow beyond" and sacrificed himself for the resistance.

I don't know why I'm so irritated by the detractors this time around vs the TFA detractors but...

[Kepler]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

I'd be interested to know Snoke's origin, and the history and sociology of the Republic and the Empire in general, but the former is another story and the latter doesn't sell tickets.

How much time has elapsed between the end of Ep 6 and the beginning of Ep 7?

[St. Clown]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

I'd be interested to know Snoke's origin, and the history and sociology of the Republic and the Empire in general, but the former is another story and the latter doesn't sell tickets.

How much time has elapsed between the end of Ep 6 and the beginning of Ep 7?

Thirty to forty years, give or take. It's stated somewhere, in one of Disney's new novels, but I don't recall the exact timeline.

ETA: Also, from a question I read somewhere else, perhaps earlier in this thread:

The reason the New Republic's military wing was always called "The Resistance" is because the New Republic disbanded any official military because the people (citizens and pols) were concerned about the rise of a new Galactic Empire from within the Republic after the Empire was finally defeated - a few months after Ep VI ended. Remnants of that final battle can be seen on Jakku in Ep. VII.

Leia and some others found the threat of The First Order when then-Ben Solo was around 10 years old, and formed their covert military group to support the Republic against Snoke's reformed Empire military (his name was yet unknown to the Resistance fighters at that time). Ben Solo was born a few years after Ep. VI (five or six?). Ben Solo/Rylo Ken is a 30-something-year-old character in these new movies.

[FreshFish]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

I don't know why I'm so irritated by the detractors this time around vs the TFA detractors but...

maybe because The Last Jedi is a much superior movie than TFA was?

[solovsfett]

maybe because The Last Jedi is a much superior movie than TFA was?

😀
That is my opinion as well...part of it may be the overanalysis (imo) I'm hearing from friends: A. It makes no sense, plot holes, Rose and Holdo suck. B. Makes a political point by putting women in charge everywhere. C. Then the opposite nutbag viewpoint: the movie is racist, sexist, etc
D. Luke would never x, Jedi never y, Leia = Mary Poppins etc

I'm usually fine with criticism of movies, books or films I like or love. This time around I just can't take the endless barrage. Even Forbes writing article daily about tickets sales...ugh

As for the points about women in control and the movie being an uber feminist polemic... I told a friend to get a grip. There was a movie in 1977 that featured a rescue of a princess by a walking carpet, a farm boy, a crazy wizard and a self-centered rogue. When push came to shove they had no plan so she took control...gasp??? What??? A woman took control?

I think that's what bugs me the most, the bs politicization of a sci-fi fantasy. EDIT: politicization by alt-right and even some uber left leaning people.

This isn't Joseph Conrad, Kafka, Coppola or Scorsese, Morrison or Alexie.

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

So on Rotten Tomatoes, only 50% of moviegoers liked it.

Is that typical early on and then the numbers climb?

Coz Rogue One is in the high 80s and TFA is in the 90s.


I'm not one to place a ton of (or any) stock in the public opinion, but it seems that the audience is polarized.

I liked TFA quite a bit more and as I've stated R-1 is up there as one of the best SW movies.

TLJ is somewhere in the middle.

Good, but not great.

A middle movie that suffers as many middle movies do.


Has Handy weighed in?

[ticapnews]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

Time line: Everything in the Star Wars universe is measured by years before or after the Battle of Yavin (Star Wars Episode 4). RotJ is 4 years ABY, Ben Solo was born 5 years ABY and the events of TFA and TLJ are 34 ABY. Rey was born 15 years ABY. So Ben is 29 and Rey is 19. There is a 30 year gap between RotJ and TFA/TLJ.

Rotten Tomatoes: While they deny they were attacked by bots, it is obvious some sort of foul play was involved in that audience ranking. The movie had 20000 votes before it even was released. The IMDB score has remained stable and is considerably higher than RT. The cinemascore (which again is the only reputable source for audience data) was an A. Many votes on RT are for that single movie and are accompanied by reviews decrying the abundance of minorities and women in lead roles, and saying that Kathleen Kennedy and her SJW's are ruining Star Wars.

Criticism of TLJ vs TFA and other movies: I find that the more I hear/read complaints about TLJ the more I appreciate the film. Especially the Leia in Space scene which I originally felt was a weak part of the film and now accept as Leia finally using her Force abilities on screen. This isn't completely out of the blue: We saw her at the end of Empire (although we attributed that entirely to Luke) and we have seen her use them in the two Leia-centric Canon novels, Bloodline and Princess of Alderaan. We also know from A Certain Point of View that it was Leia that Yoda wanted to train, not Luke. Had she been the one sent to Dagobah she might have been even more powerful than Luke. I rank this movie far above TFA in my hierarchy of films, not because TFA was bad by any means, but because this was simply so much better. I also don't care if people agree or disagree about the quality of the movie. I certainly will try to help people understand some of the concepts in TLJ and why I enjoy it, but at the end of the day if you didn't enjoy it then you didn't enjoy it. It seems like an awful lot of people who didn't like this movie are invested, in not just saying that they didn't like it but, convincing me that I didn't like it or that I shouldn't like it. That just isn't going to happen.

For people that are into Star Wars lore or want to learn more, I highly recommend checking Alex Damon (Star Wars Explained) on YouTube and the ForceCenter podcast by Ken Napzok, Joseph Scrimshaw and Jennifer Landa.

[unofan]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

You know, I never thought I'd see the day when star wars fans became nerdier than trekkies, and yet here we are...

[St. Clown]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

So on Rotten Tomatoes, only 50% of moviegoers liked it.

Is that typical early on and then the numbers climb?

Coz Rogue One is in the high 80s and TFA is in the 90s.

I'm not saying that The Last Jedi is a complicated movie by any means, but I think people liked Rogue One and The Force Awakens more because they were simpler movies. Rogue One answered questions some people had about how the Death Star plans were stolen. The Force Awakens setup new time characters which caused people to ask questions. The Last Jedi answers some questions, ignores a few others because they were just asked by fanboys with too much time on their hands, and creates new questions to be answered, too.

[Kepler]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

Time line: Everything in the Star Wars universe is measured by years before or after the Battle of Yavin (Star Wars Episode 4). RotJ is 4 years ABY, Ben Solo was born 5 years ABY and the events of TFA and TLJ are 34 ABY. Rey was born 15 years ABY. So Ben is 29 and Rey is 19. There is a 30 year gap between RotJ and TFA/TLJ.

This is great. Thank you. Is Yavin a big deal because of the destruction of the Death Star, and the climactic moment of the universe is Luke going off instruments and trusting the force?

[St. Clown]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

This is great. Thank you. Is Yavin a big deal because of the destruction of the Death Star?

It's mostly because it's the first movie, the story that started it all, and then because it's the first Death Star battle.

[BassAle]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

I'm not saying that The Last Jedi is a complicated movie by any means, but I think people liked Rogue One and The Force Awakens more because they were simpler movies. Rogue One answered questions some people had about how the Death Star plans were stolen. The Force Awakens setup new time characters which caused people to ask questions. The Last Jedi answers some questions, ignores a few others because they were just asked by fanboys with too much time on their hands, and creates new questions to be answered, too.

I think TFA is perhaps a little overrated because it was the first Star Wars movie since the awful prequels. I think the beginning of TFA was great, the Starkiller Base stuff was pretty weak. It set up some questions that people expected to be answered. Rogue One fleshed out the Star Wars universe a bit, and I think it was well done, but people didn't really have a lot of expectations coming in, we all knew that it was going to end with them stealing the Death Star plans. It was difficult to be let down.

[Kepler]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

I think TFA is perhaps a little overrated because it was the first Star Wars movie since the awful prequels. I think the beginning of TFA was great, the Starkiller Base stuff was pretty weak. It set up some questions that people expected to be answered. Rogue One fleshed out the Star Wars universe a bit, and I think it was well done, but people didn't really have a lot of expectations coming in, we all knew that it was going to end with them stealing the Death Star plans. It was difficult to be let down.

I think this is right, but I am in no way a SW junkie. Funnily, I value Ep 4 more than the fanboys, who seem to have a consensus that Ep 5 is better. I think it's more technically fluent, but the Campbell Arc in Ep 4 makes SW more interesting than just a space opera, to me.

[ticapnews]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

You know, I never thought I'd see the day when star wars fans became nerdier than trekkies, and yet here we are...

That's totally unfair.

I'm just as nerdy about Trek.

This is great. Thank you. Is Yavin a big deal because of the destruction of the Death Star, and the climactic moment of the universe is Luke going off instruments and trusting the force?

To fans, it's because it was the first film. In universe that date matters because of the destruction of the Death Star and the real beginning of the rebellion against the Empire. Before Yavin (and Scarif) the rebellion was unorganized and mostly a rumor. Blowing up the Death Star was a hell of a coming out party.

[Kepler]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

To fans, it's because it was the first film. In universe that date matters because of the destruction of the Death Star and the real beginning of the rebellion against the Empire. Before Yavin (and Scarif) the rebellion was unorganized and mostly a rumor. Blowing up the Death Star was a hell of a coming out party.

But the Empire only lasts for a very short time, right? Between the Fall of the Republic and Yavin is only a generation, right?