UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

[Snively65]

Surprise, Surprise! A well executed offensive zone face-off results in a GOAL !!!!!!!!!!!!

Who won the draw that led to Salvaggio's goal? Vela?

I really do not think that the Cats are all that bad in the faceoff circle, at least in the games that I have seen this season.

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

In the big picture, a road tie at UMaine (after going down two goals and looking very much DOA) is better than a sharp stick in the eye, and may be the start of a long-awaited turnaround? But short-term. it's another failure in The Quest as chances of Coach getting to the NRN are slowly ticking down. Now on to Greg ...

As for ethics of forcing players out, what are the ethics of basically paying kids to play hockey? What are the ethics of 14 year olds having family advisors? What are the ethics of sports coaches being the highest paid state employee in practically every state? And what are ethics when a university takes $1 million of an restricted gift from a research librarian and uses it to construct a football scoreboard? The bottom line is there is little that is ethical when it comes to Division 1 Sports. Some schools are little less pregnant, to use a metaphor, than others, but my take has always been that if you jump into the cesspool, don’t expect to come out clean. As the Globe’s Bob Ryan, an unabashed college basketball fan, famously said years ago, to enjoy the tournament, you have to suspend reality. I guess that’s why I can still care while seeing the hypocrisy of it all.

Overall, I agree with 90% of what you've posted there (we've kicked the purportedly football-crazy convert librarian, and UNH's right to allocate his gift, etc. to death). On the other hand ... I'm not necessarily opposed to a program pushing underperforming recruits out the door, so long as they don't mess with the academics piece of their bargain. If the player isn't cutting it, I don't see why he should be blocking the way to other players' opportunities, whether they are already in the program OR being recruited from outside the program. So long as they keep the academics part of the bargain in place, what's the harm? If the kid is good enough, he'll transfer, and he'll get another shot somewhere else ... and if he isn't, then he'll still get his education. Unless he decides to leave school and get a gig in the 'Coast or another low-level goon league, as we've seen countless times before.

The flip side for the program is, if you develop the reputation for doing this a lot, then that's going to get out there, and potential future recruits are gonna think twice before coming (seems we're already fighting that for unrelated reasons; see Commesso, et als). Sure, these are recruiting mistakes for the most part by the recruiters, and they'll have to pay for those mistakes, one way or another. Their day-to-day problem being, you can only bury so many players in the stands if they're underperforming, and if you make a lot of recruiting mistakes, you can't avoid having to play some of them.

I'm not sure if that's where UNH is right now, but I do know that back in the day, Coach could slow play some younger kids because his older players were top producers. That hasn't been the case at UNH for awhile now, and while I'm not losing sleep about Fregona not getting more opportunities, it's not like the guys ahead of him are prolific scorers. So folks get frustrated (and all you need to remember from the recent past on how McNicholas and Salvaggio were slow played as underclassmen, while others played instead) and I get that.

I really, really want to believe things will be different next season with Souza 100% in charge. But complacency runs deep in the UNH Athletics Department, and the rot has set in down through the ranks, top to bottom (probably excepting Football, which despite their great run is looking very much like early-era Umile with the new facility, lots of excitement, but lack of breakthrough post-season success), and things like that don't change overnight. It's going to take a dynamic coach with a very forceful personality to turn this train around, I'm afraid, and the lack of recruiting successes these last three seasons is not a really encouraging sign. /rambling JMHO.

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

Who won the draw that led to Salvaggio's goal? Vela?

I really do not think that the Cats are all that bad in the faceoff circle, at least in the games that I have seen this season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltAW...ature=youtu.be

[Snively65]

In the big picture, a road tie at UMaine (after going down two goals and looking very much DOA) is better than a sharp stick in the eye, and may be the start of a long-awaited turnaround? But short-term. it's another failure in The Quest as chances of Coach getting to the NRN are slowly ticking down. Now on to Greg ...



Overall, I agree with 90% of what you've posted there (we've kicked the purportedly football-crazy convert librarian, and UNH's right to allocate his gift, etc. to death). On the other hand ... I'm not necessarily opposed to a program pushing underperforming recruits out the door, so long as they don't mess with the academics piece of their bargain. If the player isn't cutting it, I don't see why he should be blocking the way to other players' opportunities, whether they are already in the program OR being recruited from outside the program. So long as they keep the academics part of the bargain in place, what's the harm? If the kid is good enough, he'll transfer, and he'll get another shot somewhere else ... and if he isn't, then he'll still get his education. Unless he decides to leave school and get a gig in the 'Coast or another low-level goon league, as we've seen countless times before.

The flip side for the program is, if you develop the reputation for doing this a lot, then that's going to get out there, and potential future recruits are gonna think twice before coming (seems we're already fighting that for unrelated reasons; see Commesso, et als). Sure, these are recruiting mistakes for the most part by the recruiters, and they'll have to pay for those mistakes, one way or another. Their day-to-day problem being, you can only bury so many players in the stands if they're underperforming, and if you make a lot of recruiting mistakes, you can't avoid having to play some of them.

I'm not sure if that's where UNH is right now, but I do know that back in the day, Coach could slow play some younger kids because his older players were top producers. That hasn't been the case at UNH for awhile now, and while I'm not losing sleep about Fregona not getting more opportunities, it's not like the guys ahead of him are prolific scorers. So folks get frustrated (and all you need to remember from the recent past on how McNicholas and Salvaggio were slow played as underclassmen, while others played instead) and I get that.

I really, really want to believe things will be different next season with Souza 100% in charge. But complacency runs deep in the UNH Athletics Department, and the rot has set in down through the ranks, top to bottom (probably excepting Football, which despite their great run is looking very much like early-era Umile with the new facility, lots of excitement, but lack of breakthrough post-season success), and things like that don't change overnight. It's going to take a dynamic coach with a very forceful personality to turn this train around, I'm afraid, and the lack of recruiting successes these last three seasons is not a really encouraging sign. /rambling JMHO.

Who sat to allow Fregona ice time on Friday night?

Souza's PP continues to struggle.

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

You know what recruits hate more than overrecruiting? Under-recruiting or non competitive recruiting

He's the 12th defenseman known to be committed to the Badgers for future seasons.

"I see that more as incentive to try to get in the lineup every night and just compete every day," Vorlicky said. "That's what Coach (Tony) Granato has told me that the atmosphere is.

"And that's how it is at Edina, because they expect you to play night in and night out. And if you're not doing that, there's going to be a guy right behind you that's going to take your spot. That's just the atmosphere, and that breeds excellence."

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

You know what recruits hate more than overrecruiting? Under-recruiting or non competitive recruiting

He's the 12th defenseman known to be committed to the Badgers for future seasons.

"I see that more as incentive to try to get in the lineup every night and just compete every day," Vorlicky said. "That's what Coach (Tony) Granato has told me that the atmosphere is.

"And that's how it is at Edina, because they expect you to play night in and night out. And if you're not doing that, there's going to be a guy right behind you that's going to take your spot. That's just the atmosphere, and that breeds excellence."

Couldn't agree more.

[Snively65]

You know what recruits hate more than overrecruiting? Under-recruiting or non competitive recruiting

He's the 12th defenseman known to be committed to the Badgers for future seasons.

"I see that more as incentive to try to get in the lineup every night and just compete every day," Vorlicky said. "That's what Coach (Tony) Granato has told me that the atmosphere is.

"And that's how it is at Edina, because they expect you to play night in and night out. And if you're not doing that, there's going to be a guy right behind you that's going to take your spot. That's just the atmosphere, and that breeds excellence."

Just like UNH goalie position this season.

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

Who sat to allow Fregona ice time on Friday night?

Souza's PP continues to struggle.

Cefalu. Yes, couldn't agree more. (about the PP) Lucky for us Maine's fared no better last night.

[Snively65]

Cefalu. Yes, couldn't agree more. (about the PP) Lucky for us Maine's fared no better last night.

Curious whether we have a coach who works specifically on our PK, as Souza apparently does for our putrid PP? Our PK has been great all season, if no one coaches it, perhaps Umile should try that strategy for the PP?

[Felger]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

UNH will drag UMaine down to its level this weekend, mark my words. Tirone Derangement Syndrome.

Good call, Chuck. I guess Lucy is holding the football in Orono as well as in Durham. As you said on the other thread its so sad what has happened to The Rivalry Formerly Known As the Border War.

I will say this much for the neighbors to the north. At least they seemed disappointed with the tie. That says something about differing levels of expectations.

A UNH win tonight seems likely which would make the Bears winless in four of their last five and I believe would give the 'Cats a nine game unbeaten streak in the series with a game yet to come in Durham. Could that Valentines Day contest be the NRN?

[e.cat]

Good call, Chuck. I guess Lucy is holding the football in Orono as well as in Durham. As you said on the other thread its so sad what has happened to The Rivalry Formerly Known As the Border War.

I will say this much for the neighbors to the north. At least they seemed disappointed with the tie. That says something about differing levels of expectations.

A UNH win tonight seems likely which would make the Bears winless in four of their last five and I believe would give the 'Cats a nine game unbeaten streak in the series with a game yet to come in Durham. Could that Valentines Day contest be the NRN?

They were up 2-0 so a tie feels like a loss. UNH came back to tie it so it feels more like a win. Remember the Brown game?

[Dan]

You know what recruits hate more than overrecruiting? Under-recruiting or non competitive recruiting

He's the 12th defenseman known to be committed to the Badgers for future seasons.

"I see that more as incentive to try to get in the lineup every night and just compete every day," Vorlicky said. "That's what Coach (Tony) Granato has told me that the atmosphere is.

"And that's how it is at Edina, because they expect you to play night in and night out. And if you're not doing that, there's going to be a guy right behind you that's going to take your spot. That's just the atmosphere, and that breeds excellence."

I have no problem with schools going out and recruiting more talented players and then giving ice time and opportunity to the best ones. Taking scholarships away or 'doing everything in ones power to run a kid out of school' (Coady) is a different story. If a kid is working hard, going to class and being a good teammate then they deserve what was promised to them - their place on the roster...

Doing otherwise shows a complete lack of loyalty and accountability by the coaching staff - in other words everything they demand from their players and lament about today's youth. (Many coaches are incredible hypocrites in terms of how they act and what they demand - and I despise it).

If you whiff on a kid - but can get a better one - sit that first kid in section 113 during games with opportunities to work towards their goals in practice. If they live up to their end of the bargain they stay. If they're a problem things can be evaluated. If they decide to leave in their own - best of luck. But blaming and resenting the kid for the coaches own awful recruiting, efforting to make them unhappy in hopes they'll leave to avoid such treatment and citing the idea that everyone is doing it or that players have advisors looking out for them (Greg) is not an ethical line I'd want to see crossed. But those lines are up to everyone's personal interpretation.

Doing so is ABSOLUTELY an attack on their athletic and academic interests and to think otherwise would be naive (Chuck). If they're forced out of the program it's 100% to get the money back (read out of school entirely) to rectify a coaching mistake...

Being accountable, respectful, living up to commitments is not an impediment to success. Scapegoating players who don't produce like you thought they would (coaches' fault) and running them out of your program for no other reason than to get their money and avoid looking in the mirror is very likely to be a massive problem at some point...

Coach them up, make better recruiting decisions going forward, play your best kids (you don't have to make any promises outside of $ in recruiting), recruit your team needs honorably, care, work hard and compete. Winning the right way - It's not as difficult as some coaches make it seem...

[Dan]

Couldn't agree more.

The issues with 'competition' at UNH are not missing because UNH is not cutthroat on the recruiting trail. They're a result of awful recruiting in general and handing people positions.

Tirone gets to play goalie almost every night for no reason other than the coaching staff decided he was the best three years ago and ignore the actual production - which screams for, at least, a competition...

Miller and Foegele have left the program because, in spite of being better than upperclass options they were banished to the fourth-line or the stands. Coaching decisions that had nothing to do with talent or competition. In fact it was the lack of opportunities to compete that chased them out the door.

You can recruiting honorably and still bring in lots of good players. You can still create a culture of competition within your program. Period.

UNHs problem is an inability to recruit enough good players, first. And a program wide lack of competition and accountability, second.

Punting hard-workers, that have been promised scholarships, because they're not the goal scorers in the NCAA that they weren't in the USHL or because you ignorantly thought EHL stats would translate isn't the answer. The coaches need to do a better job. Period.

---

Another thought to Watcher's point - grabbing Gildon late and playing him over Dawson because he's earned it? No problem. Kicking, say BVR (example only), off the team because he's not yet the sniper they needed to use his money to grab a better player? Problem.

Sitting Fregona (Example only) because they think they have better options and he's losing the 'competition' in practice. No problem. Hypothetically sitting in favor of cheaper players, ignoring him and making his life miserable in an effort to get his money? Problem.
---

BTW - for all of UWs ruthless recruiting they're just four games above .500 under Granato and en route to another year of no NCAA tournament. I'm not interested in that style - but if I'm going to sell my soul to do it, better be a hell of a lot more successful...

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

Dan, I think we're more in agreement on most of this than you seem to think/feel.

The difference right now between Wisco and UNH is the former is still perceived as a D-1 destination, with a new and ambitious coach who can (at least for now) use that approach to carve out the wheat from the chaff, and also to keep everyone on their toes. UNH is no longer that D-1 destination program - and if it ever truly was, it hasn't been for at least the last decade. I don't see Souza coming even close to having the weight of reputation as Granato (a former NHL star and assistant coach, and the current US Olympic head coach) to draw top recruits willing to battle for ice time against like-kind recruits.

We do not disagree on what's landed UNH in its current state. We do not disagree that players - all of them - need to earn their places, not ease through on past reputation/performance OR on "seniority".

No one should be touching whatever financial commitment the program has made for the player's academics. But if the player turns out not to be able to work his way into PT contention on merit, he is not "owed" anything but a slot on the roster, and the outstanding $$$ to continue his education in the classroom. Yeah, there should be a path forward for the kid to work towards getting out onto the ice ... but if he's not talented enough to get there, isn't it more honest to just tell the kid he's never going to make it, and to let him pursue other options which may come with different results ... than just keeping him on the fringes, spinning his wheels in the dark, with no hope of ever getting meaningful ice time?

I'm sure Coady's statement 30+ years ago came with some degree of exaggeration and hyperbole, which does not sit well in the context of the "gotcha" PC world we're living in these days. You don't ever want to see any player being targeted by a hypocritical coach who was your best friend a year or two ago, and is now P.O.'ed because his "diamond in the rough" get/find turned out to be the "pumpkin" that all the other coaches who passed on him in the first place correctly assessed him to be. That's wrong. But missing on a reach happens. It's happened to me, and while there is no money or scholarship involved at my level, opportunity certainly is. Most coaches "own" it, because we understand it's taking a chance, and sometimes you guess right - sometimes you don't. No one is perfect. Not Umile, not Souza, not Granato, and not even Walshy/Standbrook.

But there are some (admittedly limited) situations where a kid gets a (too) good deal, knows it, kicks it into some level of cruise control, and it's just never going to work out. Most kids will transfer out if/when they come close to a situation like that. But if there are no takers at the other end, sometimes that roster slot/seat in the stands starts to look like a pretty good deal. It's hard to work up a whole lot of sympathy for that kind of player. Otherwise, I think we're fairly aligned in our opinions and analysis on most of this stuff.

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

UNH fights off two back to back penalties by MacAdams but leaves a man uncovered for Maines equalizer. Any thoughts on the first?