The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

[Kepler]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

I don't know Scoobs, I've had plenty of people out here tell me the ACA was just a conservative bill that did nothing for anybody, so maybe from a lefty perspective we're all better off if it gets repealed???

Except, of course, that nobody said this.

The ACA did start out as a conservative half-measure to cockblock Single Payer.

Nobody said it does nothing -- it does a tremendous amount of good. We could do more but absent the political will we should stick with what we have for now.

Nobody said it should be repealed except for Scooby who, I assume jokingly, said he wanted people to suffer because they voted wrong.

If you're going to debate, you ought to debate honestly. When you rely on rhetorical tricks and deliberate mischaracterizations you are only revealing your argument is weak.

[Rover]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

Except, of course, that nobody said this.

The ACA did start out as a conservative half-measure to cockblock Single Payer.

Nobody said it does nothing -- it does a tremendous amount of good. We could do more but absent the political will we should stick with what we have for now.

Nobody said it should be repealed except for Scooby who, I assume jokingly, said he wanted people to suffer because they voted wrong.

If you're going to debate, you ought to debate honestly. When you rely on rhetorical tricks and deliberate mischaracterizations you are only revealing your argument is weak.

Kep, how many times have left leaning posters on the board called the ACA conservative light, or a Heritage foundation idea, etc. I've said this to you repeatedly, and politely for the most part, but it bears repeating. If the knuckledraggers are calling all Dem passed laws as worthless...and the liberals are also calling the very same Dem passed laws as useless, how do you expect the low attention span public to react? I will bust you for example on Dodd-Frank, where you were clueless that banks were forced to increase deposits on hand in case of another crisis (your word were "Basel III hasn't started yet so doesn't that mean nothing has gone into effect"). My suggestion is that people who are inclined to vote Dem celebrate when Dems pass a law that massively moves the ball downfield (ACA, Dodd-Frank, or from earlier times Brady Bill and CHIP) instead of spending more time whining about what wasn't included.

PS - this is a spot on quote today on topic...

“There are two types of Democrats. There are killers, and there are whiners. Unfortunately, we have too many of the latter and not enough of the former.”

— David Krone, Harry Reid’s former chief of staff, quoted by the New York Times.

[BassAle]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

Rover,
Is it not true that the ACA is based on a conservative proposal out of the heritage foundation, first implemented by Mitt Romney? I'm not saying it is worthless, but it is far from a progressive plan (single payer) A more middle ground approach would look like the ACA with a public option.

I don't think the ACA goes far enough. That doesn't mean it is worthless. It got millions of people covered that weren't otherwise. It projected people with pre-existing conditions.

I'd like to roll back the medicare eligibility age over time until everyone is covered, while at the same time raising the payroll tax for medicare. That being said, healthcare will never be controlled without some massive lifestyle changes that drastically cut the US obesity rates.

[trixR4kids]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

Rover,
Is it not true that the ACA is based on a conservative proposal out of the heritage foundation, first implemented by Mitt Romney? I'm not saying it is worthless, but it is far from a progressive plan (single payer) A more middle ground approach would look like the ACA with a public option.

I don't think the ACA goes far enough. That doesn't mean it is worthless. It got millions of people covered that weren't otherwise. It projected people with pre-existing conditions.

I'd like to roll back the medicare eligibility age over time until everyone is covered, while at the same time raising the payroll tax for medicare. That being said, healthcare will never be controlled without some massive lifestyle changes that drastically cut the US obesity rates.

It's almost like the answer requires some nuance rather than the black and white interpretation he always tries to give.

Yes the ACA was better than nothing and improved a lot of things, nobody except Frauddy/Wisco/Joe are arguing otherwise. But the whole not including a public mandate and negotiating against themselves when they had a super majority is what caused things to swing massively the other direction in 2010 election.

[Kepler]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

PS - this is a spot on quote today on topic...

“There are two types of Democrats. There are killers, and there are whiners. Unfortunately, we have too many of the latter and not enough of the former.”

— David Krone, Harry Reid’s former chief of staff, quoted by the New York Times.

There are two kinds of Democrats: liberals and snivelers. We sometimes have to settle for the latter when the situation absolutely requires it, but we should always be holding our nose, and always looking for an opportunity to stand on our principles and not just be the donor class' fallback b-tch.

Now remind us again how if we put real liberal positions out there that's just being a "Bern Out" or "naive" or "pie in the sky" or the other thousand excuses you come up with when we start talking about real change.

I'm sure you're a great guy in person, Rove, but on the plutes you're a sniveler. We'll settle for you when we must, but you are weak sauce and your ideas do nothing to stop the tanks of the right from relentlessly advancing. You are an appeaser.

[Rover]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

Rover,
Is it not true that the ACA is based on a conservative proposal out of the heritage foundation, first implemented by Mitt Romney?

.

No, it wasn't based on the Heritage proposal. However, it did include some concepts such as an individual mandate and the creating of purchasing pools. Not sure if that meant state exchanges as their proposal wasn't nearly as detailed. What Heritage did not have was 1) a way to pay for it (as in the higher taxes on the rich that the ACA has are in no way connected to Heritage). Also, it didn't have the Medicaid expansion, or keeping dependents on their parents insurance until age 26. By continuing to say that the ACA is in fact the Heritage proposal, you're playing into the hands of the conservatives by dampening liberal support with that exaggeration. Not sure why you want to do that...

EDIT: I also don't believe the 80% rule of premiums have to be used to pay for healthcare was part of the Heritage proposal, nor banning lifetime caps on benefits.

I'm not saying it is worthless, but it is far from a progressive plan (single payer) A more middle ground approach would look like the ACA with a public option.

I don't think the ACA goes far enough. That doesn't mean it is worthless. It got millions of people covered that weren't otherwise. It projected people with pre-existing conditions.

I'd like to roll back the medicare eligibility age over time until everyone is covered, while at the same time raising the payroll tax for medicare. That being said, healthcare will never be controlled without some massive lifestyle changes that drastically cut the US obesity rates.

What you're saying then is its not ideal. That's fine, but waaaayyyy too many lefties focus on the "no single payer" when in fact they didn't have the votes for that despite trying to do so (Lieberman in particular sunk that). Politically, it would be far better for us to correctly embrace the huge progressive victory that the ACA ended up being instead of lamenting the one progressive item that got left off (public option). That's what got us into trouble in 2010. If you don't have the votes, you can't include something. Why trix doesn't understand that is sorta beyond me. Should Obama have threated Lieberman with jail time?

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

It's almost like the answer requires some nuance rather than the black and white interpretation he always tries to give.

Yes the ACA was better than nothing and improved a lot of things, nobody except Frauddy/Wisco/Joe are arguing otherwise. But the whole not including a public mandate and negotiating against themselves when they had a super majority is what caused things to swing massively the other direction in 2010 election.

Sure. If all the Dems voted for it even with the public option. They went through regular order too. The other party can't get anything through even without regular order and complete control without the 60 threshold.

You're supposed to be able to compromise.

That being said the PPACA is just another example of definitive proof the private sector is a failure. Why isn't there a provider in certain states? They don't want to do it cause it's not profitable enough. The 15% overhead they are allowed to charge under the ACA law isn't worth their time.

[Rover]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

Boy, I'll say that that's true.

Now remind me again how if we put real liberal positions out there that's just being a "Bern Out" or "naive" or "pie in the sky" or the other thousand excuses you come up with when we start talking about real change.

I would say there are two kinds of Democrats: liberal's and snivelers. We sometimes have to settle for the latter when the situation absolutely requires it, but we should always be holding our nose, and always looking for an opportunity to stand on our principles and not just be the donor class' fallback b-tch.

Your positions can't be ridiculous however, as some of Bernie's are (ducks potential lightening bolt). Some of us evaluate the man's proposals at face value and take the ones that work, while some others view the guy as a deity descended from Heaven above who is not to be questioned. If we followed your lead we'd go the way of the Whigs.

[Kepler]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

Sure. If all the Dems voted for it even with the public option. They went through regular order too. The other party can't get anything through even without regular order and complete control without the 60 threshold.

You're supposed to be able to compromise.

That being said the PPACA is just another example of definitive proof the private sector is a failure. Why isn't there a provider in certain states? They don't want to do it cause it's not profitable enough. The 15% overhead they are allowed to charge under the ACA law isn't worth their time.

Regular order should be 51. If the GOP's fascist blitzkrieg does one good thing it will be to kill the filibuster under all circumstances forever.

[Rover]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

Regular order should be 51. If the GOP's fascist blitzkrieg does one good thing it will be to kill the filibuster under all circumstances forever.

Soooo....you want a situation where Ryan-Itch-Chump have even less roadblocks on implementing their agenda that they do already?


Okay then!

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

Soooo....you want a situation where Ryan-Itch-Chump have even less roadblocks on implementing their agenda that they do already?


Okay then!

Yeah, I think he's insane. And the ping pong effect on law would be sickening after a while.

[Kepler]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

Soooo....you want a situation where Ryan-Itch-Chump have even less roadblocks on implementing their agenda that they do already?


Okay then!

We've talked about this many times before. Under the current system the right is able to push through radical policies while the left must nibble.

If you can figure out how to deny the right an opportunity to use major dislocations like wars to ram their agenda down our throats I would prefer that (after one big jump to the left to re-center American politics back to about 1975).

I do take the criticism of the ping pong effect to heart. It's not optimal. But it sure beats the last fifty year of "2 steps forward, 6 steps back."

[Kepler]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

Yeah, I think he's insane. And the ping pong effect on law would be sickening after a while.

I think this is a legitimate fear, though it might also force legislators to legislate compromises, and more importantly not to train their followers to be rabid animals.

[trixR4kids]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

If you don't have the votes, you can't include something. Why trix doesn't understand that is sorta beyond me. Should Obama have threated Lieberman with jail time?

He was pretty wishy washy about the public option to begin with though and could've definitely made a better effort to keep it.

https://thinkprogress.org/flashback-...-380cbf31b6e0/

[Rover]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part VI: Tax Cuts Are More Important Than Your Health Care!

We've talked about this many times before. Under the current system the right is able to push through radical policies while the left must nibble.

If you can figure out how to deny the right an opportunity to use major dislocations like wars to ram their agenda down our throats I would prefer that (after one big jump to the left to re-center American politics back to about 1975).

I do take the criticism of the ping pong effect to heart. It's not optimal. But it sure beats the last fifty year of "2 steps forward, 6 steps back."

Kep, while I won't deny I enjoy having fun at your expense on occasion I do understand your advocacy for drastic action in the face of what you perceive to be a decline in progressive government over the last 40? years. However for me, and maybe Scoobs, the solution is simpler and less radical. Voters need to stop taking it in the shorts with a smile on their face. Or not and I have no sympathy for them while they suffer the consequences. You admirably want to save people who can't be bothered to save themselves as they keep voting Republican over nonsensical issues. I don't. Maybe I'll join you if their idiotic policies start affecting me but for right now the people getting d!cked are the people who worship Chump and his peeps. I don't have a problem with that.