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Thread: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Why is there a state income tax deduction? If you still live in one of the dark blue states you should be willing to own up to your own choices and not be wandering around with your hand out.
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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    Why is there a state income tax deduction? If you still live in one of the dark blue states you should be willing to own up to your own choices and not be wandering around with your hand out.
    BS. You seen the states that get the most federal money? None of them are blue.
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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by mookie1995 View Post
    you mean?!??!



    Well, I don't mean Dartmouth anyway.
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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    BS. You seen the states that get the most federal money? None of them are blue.
    Exactly. Florida and Texas need to start a state income tax and put it into a fund to pay for hurricane disaster recovery so the rest of us can quit paying for it.

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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem


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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Trump nearly walked out without signing his executive order, AGAIN!

    We have second term Reagan in the first 10 months.

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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by alfablue View Post
    Don't mistake actually paying taxes with a fair and equitable rate.

    I don't doubt that rich people and business owners pay taxes. Not doing so is too risky not to.

    But is their portion fair or not. For that, I suggest everyone go to IRS.GOV and look at the data. You will see that there's a peak of actual tax rate just below $1M earned, and above that, the effective rate goes down (and it's pretty flat from $100k to $1M). So far that the richer you are, you end up paying almost the same as some lower middle class people.

    This is not exactly what the progressive tax rate would suggest. The #1 reason, according to the IRS, is unearned income in the form of long term capitol gains. So if you have the means to NOT WORK, you can pay 15% tax on your long term bet that just sits there and does nothing. Which is also to say- the richer you are, there's more incentive to not work and not contribute to society, (such as being a CEO). As you pay only 15% base rate vs. over 33% base rate on your income.

    This is freaking stupid and needs fixed. But that's never going to happen with a real estate person running the country, since real estate increases count as capitol gains.

    Income is income, should not bias it to one way or another like we do. Fix that, and we end up fixing multiple things at the same time- a huge tax hole for people with means and the rather obvious incentive to not work and really contribute.

    BTW, it's fair to note- money tied up in capitol gains is also money that does not flow through our economy. Which is what is needed for growth.
    I don't claim to be a tax expert or economist, but a couple of comments.

    First, money "tied up in capital gains" isn't exactly doing nothing, as you claim. If it does nothing, it's not going to produce a capital gain. It's money that is invested in bonds or stocks or real estate or whatever that is (hopefully?) increasing in value so that when I sell it I will sell it at a "gain" which will then be taxed.

    Smarter people than me will tell me where I'm wrong, but I think there are a number of justifications for a lower capital gains rate. First, a higher capital gains tax discourages savings in the form of investments. Second, a higher capital gains rate negatively affects corporations, who are then encouraged to use debt for financing, as opposed to equity, which can put them into a dicey situation as the economy changes.

    Finally, I don't know of any evidence to suggest that changing the capital gains rate actually has an effect on income inequality in the country. Income inequality needs to be addressed, but that's simply done by raising the income tax rate on higher income earners. Doing it with the capital gains rate simply doesn't work. The wealthy just change the way they do business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    BS. You seen the states that get the most federal money? None of them are blue.
    That’s because their incomes are lower so they qualify at higher rates for welfare. It’s not what I was talking about though. If you click the link, places like Maine, CA, MN, and Iowa are getting paid by the rest of us just because their states are screwed up. They’re double-dipping.
    To clarify, it seems to be a deduction on personal income, so you’d have to compare the federal tax rates on people making the same salary to make a judgment.
    Last edited by geezer; 10-12-2017 at 11:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dave122793 View Post
    Exactly. Florida and Texas need to start a state income tax and put it into a fund to pay for hurricane disaster recovery so the rest of us can quit paying for it.
    It’s a different topic. TX pays no state tax, so they’re paying a much larger share of federal taxes than Californians who appear to be ducking out of about 13%.

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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    Finally, I don't know of any evidence to suggest that changing the capital gains rate actually has an effect on income inequality in the country. Income inequality needs to be addressed, but that's simply done by raising the income tax rate on higher income earners. Doing it with the capital gains rate simply doesn't work. The wealthy just change the way they do business.
    Capital gains is lower than earned income because rich people control the government. The rest is a cover story.
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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    It’s a different topic. TX pays no state tax, so they’re paying a much larger share of federal taxes than Californians who appear to be ducking out of about 13%.
    OK, first off, that's the highest marginal rate, so it's hard to infer from that what peoples' effective rates are. Second, as that's an itemized deduction, not everyone is claiming it, so for a large portion of the population it is likely moot. Third, to actual know who is "ducking out" we would need to see the effective federal rate of people in both states rather than make some poorly formed assumptions based on one random data point that may not be that relevant.

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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    I don't claim to be a tax expert or economist, but a couple of comments.

    First, money "tied up in capital gains" isn't exactly doing nothing, as you claim. If it does nothing, it's not going to produce a capital gain. It's money that is invested in bonds or stocks or real estate or whatever that is (hopefully?) increasing in value so that when I sell it I will sell it at a "gain" which will then be taxed.

    Smarter people than me will tell me where I'm wrong, but I think there are a number of justifications for a lower capital gains rate. First, a higher capital gains tax discourages savings in the form of investments. Second, a higher capital gains rate negatively affects corporations, who are then encouraged to use debt for financing, as opposed to equity, which can put them into a dicey situation as the economy changes.

    Finally, I don't know of any evidence to suggest that changing the capital gains rate actually has an effect on income inequality in the country. Income inequality needs to be addressed, but that's simply done by raising the income tax rate on higher income earners. Doing it with the capital gains rate simply doesn't work. The wealthy just change the way they do business.
    As I said, there are people on this board who will tell you that someone won't make an investment that will give him 20% returns if he has to pay a third of the profits in taxes. Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with exhibit A.
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    Quote Originally Posted by French Rage View Post
    OK, first off, that's the highest marginal rate, so it's hard to infer from that what peoples' effective rates are. Second, as that's an itemized deduction, not everyone is claiming it, so for a large portion of the population it is likely moot. Third, to actual know who is "ducking out" we would need to see the effective federal rate of people in both states rather than make some poorly formed assumptions based on one random data point that may not be that relevant.
    Thanks - that almost answers my question, even though it’s uncomfortably close to, “it’s too complex to know.” Perhaps it all washes out.

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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    If you click the link, places like Maine, CA, MN, and Iowa are getting paid by the rest of us just because their states are screwed up.
    Huh? The link doesn't shot that...

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    As I said, there are people on this board who will tell you that someone won't make an investment that will give him 20% returns if he has to pay a third of the profits in taxes. Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with exhibit A.
    LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    BS. You seen the states that get the most federal money? None of them are blue.
    I think you might be confusing “blue states” with “Democrat voting states”? In this chart, it just stands for “insanely high state taxes.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    Huh? The link doesn't shot that...

    LMAO
    Not directly, but it does by inference if people are writing off their state taxes from Uncle Sam’s bill.

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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    I don't claim to be a tax expert or economist, but a couple of comments.

    First, money "tied up in capital gains" isn't exactly doing nothing, as you claim. If it does nothing, it's not going to produce a capital gain. It's money that is invested in bonds or stocks or real estate or whatever that is (hopefully?) increasing in value so that when I sell it I will sell it at a "gain" which will then be taxed.

    Smarter people than me will tell me where I'm wrong, but I think there are a number of justifications for a lower capital gains rate. First, a higher capital gains tax discourages savings in the form of investments. Second, a higher capital gains rate negatively affects corporations, who are then encouraged to use debt for financing, as opposed to equity, which can put them into a dicey situation as the economy changes.

    Finally, I don't know of any evidence to suggest that changing the capital gains rate actually has an effect on income inequality in the country. Income inequality needs to be addressed, but that's simply done by raising the income tax rate on higher income earners. Doing it with the capital gains rate simply doesn't work. The wealthy just change the way they do business.
    Yes, it does nothing. If I have $1M in some investment, it's just there. It's not spent on someone's wage, it's not paid to anyone to make something, it just sits there. And if it loses value, I even get to take a tax deduction. The gain is because someone else values the thing more than I do and is willing to pay more for it. That does not actually mean it's better, just that it's more valuable to someone else.

    The second point it total BS. The group that really gains from capitol gains taxes don't need any more incentive to save more money. They already are for two reason 1) more power, and 2) it does not cost nearly what they earn relative to less income groups. So it's super easy to save money when you are earning in excess of $1M a year- again, the largest group, BY FAR, that earn capitol gains. And the "kind of investment" idea is crap, too- well over 90% of stock sales are trades, not direct investments in a company. When you trade stocks, companies don't see a penny of that exchange, when someone pays you more money for the stock than you paid for it, companies don't see a penny of that. If you want to encourage investments directly into companies- I'm fine with that. But handing that same incentive to people who trade stuff is total BS.

    We really don't need to raise the tax rates of the top earners. Again, go look at IRS.GOV to see the data. This is UNEARNED income. Why in the world does UNEARNED income get a tax advantage? You didn't actually work for it, you didn't earn it, you should not pay a lower tax rate on that income than any other income.

    And don't give me the BS argument that the wealthy will just find another way- as if that's a reason to not do some action. Some might, sure. But the gross majority will not. Nor will they take their money so some random tiny island that has no capitol gains taxes- because all of the real investment opportunities are in countries that you have to pay taxes.

    If you don't think that it has an impact on income inequality, do the math. It's really easy. And go look at the data on IRS.GOV. And see all of the income that they hyper rich lock up off of the real economy, just earning income with light tax rates. This whole policy is insane. We don't need MORE mechanisms for the rich to get richer. They have plenty of them already. We need them to spend their money so that the rest of the economy can actually work. And if they don't want to- tax them, and pay people to do stuff.

    Saving money is good if you eventually plan on spending it. Otherwise, it's just money taken out of the economy, which takes money away from hard working people. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand our consumer based economy.

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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    Not directly, but it does by inference if people are writing off their state taxes from Uncle Sam’s bill.
    Ok fair enough, I admit this isn't something I'm super knowledgeable about (despite living in said state :whoops: ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by alfablue View Post
    Yes, it does nothing. If I have $1M in some investment, it's just there. It's not spent on someone's wage, it's not paid to anyone to make something, it just sits there. And if it loses value, I even get to take a tax deduction. The gain is because someone else values the thing more than I do and is willing to pay more for it. That does not actually mean it's better, just that it's more valuable to someone else.

    The second point it total BS. The group that really gains from capitol gains taxes don't need any more incentive to save more money. They already are for two reason 1) more power, and 2) it does not cost nearly what they earn relative to less income groups. So it's super easy to save money when you are earning in excess of $1M a year- again, the largest group, BY FAR, that earn capitol gains. And the "kind of investment" idea is crap, too- well over 90% of stock sales are trades, not direct investments in a company. When you trade stocks, companies don't see a penny of that exchange, when someone pays you more money for the stock than you paid for it, companies don't see a penny of that. If you want to encourage investments directly into companies- I'm fine with that. But handing that same incentive to people who trade stuff is total BS.

    We really don't need to raise the tax rates of the top earners. Again, go look at IRS.GOV to see the data. This is UNEARNED income. Why in the world does UNEARNED income get a tax advantage? You didn't actually work for it, you didn't earn it, you should not pay a lower tax rate on that income than any other income.

    And don't give me the BS argument that the wealthy will just find another way- as if that's a reason to not do some action. Some might, sure. But the gross majority will not. Nor will they take their money so some random tiny island that has no capitol gains taxes- because all of the real investment opportunities are in countries that you have to pay taxes.

    If you don't think that it has an impact on income inequality, do the math. It's really easy. And go look at the data on IRS.GOV. And see all of the income that they hyper rich lock up off of the real economy, just earning income with light tax rates. This whole policy is insane. We don't need MORE mechanisms for the rich to get richer. They have plenty of them already. We need them to spend their money so that the rest of the economy can actually work. And if they don't want to- tax them, and pay people to do stuff.

    Saving money is good if you eventually plan on spending it. Otherwise, it's just money taken out of the economy, which takes money away from hard working people. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand our consumer based economy.
    Not bad... and you did say “hard working people”, but I’ve got to deduct a point for failing to say “folks.”

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    Re: POTUS 45.21 STAND for our great National Anthem

    Quote Originally Posted by alfablue View Post
    Saving money is good if you eventually plan on spending it. Otherwise, it's just money taken out of the economy, which takes money away from hard working people. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand our consumer based economy.
    It's amazing how many people don't understand the most basic aspects of our economy ie GDP and what the vast majority of it is driven by (it's consumer spending and last I checked it was something like 3.5x as much as investments).

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