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  • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

    Originally posted by J.D. View Post
    They weren't just a favorite in hockey east. I think they were preseason #2. It's just my opinion but i think a lot of BU fans agree. Quinn is a great recruiter but coaching is still a question mark.
    I've been hearing more & more of the same amongst fellow BU fans. He's now had 2 classes of players who are playing/have played 4 years under him; those players are:

    2013-2017
    Somerby
    Roberto
    Kelley

    2014-2018
    Hickey
    Olsson
    Phelps
    MacLeod
    Diffley

    In looking at those players, how many of them have significantly improved from Freshman -> Senior year? I'd argue there are more on that list who played their best hockey as Freshmen and either flatlined or regressed in their hockey development since.

    Secondly, as Dan cited in a previous post, the JFK and Bellows departures have hurt a lot more than many have acknowledged. If both returned, it would have given BU 2 legit lines of top-6 forwards, although I question at times whether Bellows would have vastly improved this year at BU.

    The concern I have with the BU program is the revolving door amongst players and staff. In 5 years there have been:

    5 different assistant coaches
    4 different directors of hockey ops
    3 different strength/conditioning coaches

    Also, 7 forwards from last year's roster departed (2 graduated, 1 to NHL, 1 to AHL, 1 to MJ, 2 transfers).

    Also, here's a list of players since Quinn became HC I could think of who left (or committed but never showed up to) BU under the following circumstances: 1) transfer to another program; 2) go to Major Junior; 3) decommitted; 4) dismissed/cut. I didn't include the expected early departures like Eichel, Keller, McAvoy, O'Connor, Maguire:


    2013
    Privitera bros. - Alexx was asked not to return; Jarrid decommitted and joined Alexx at UVM
    Gill - decided not to come back following coaching change

    2014
    Kurker - dismissed from team, goes to USHL, transferred to Northeastern
    Collier - cut from team, transferred to Northeastern
    MacAfee - dismissed from team, transferred to Army
    Coughlin - decommitted, ends up @ Vermont

    2015
    Duane - transferred to Quinnipiac
    Piccinich - departed for Major Junior
    MacTavish - decommitted, ends up @ Alaska
    Sherwood - no-show, signs ELC w/ Columbus after 2015 draft
    Letunov - no-show, ends up @ UCONN over administrative/academic issue
    Greer - departs for Major Junior halfway thru 2015-16 season

    2016
    Baillargeon - graduates early, transfers to ASU for Sr year
    Fortunato - dismissed from team, transferred to Quinnipiac
    Lawrence - cut from team

    2017
    JFK - signs w/ Bruins
    Lacouvee - graduates early, transfers to Mankato for Sr year
    Bellows - departs for Major Junior
    McDermott - transfers to Providence
    Andren - transfers to Ferris State


    It's not to say that some of the players who left the program under these circumstances would have made a huge difference if they returned, but the amount of churn/turnover on BU's roster and staff in recent years is, IMO, an obstacle towards building and sustaining the long-term success that BU is measured by.

    Comment


    • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

      Friend: any chance you could do a similar listing for the last 5 years of Parker's tenure? My gut was that the rate of change hasn't increased, we had lots of this with Parker. But seeing all the names you listed has me wondering.

      One thing that we don't seem to have as much of, that we had with Parker is "decommits" who were likely going the MJ route all along (a la Werek, Esposito, D'Angelo). I wonder if that is a change impacting more than BU, or if Quinn is doing something differently.

      Sherwood was one who did, but he sort of had to since he didn't get drafted. If he had been drafted (and BU lobbied to try to make it happen), he likely would have still come to BU.
      BU Hockey: The trophy case is once again growing

      Comment


      • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

        Originally posted by J.D. View Post
        They weren't just a favorite in hockey east. I think they were preseason #2. It's just my opinion but i think a lot of BU fans agree. Quinn is a great recruiter but coaching is still a question mark.
        Just stepping back for a bit, it really is crazy that the national preseason #2 is sitting all the way at 32 in the PWR right now. They really do play like #2. And while I don't follow as closely as I used to, I don't believe any major injuries have really crept up and bit BU. I'm not sure what Quinn is doing but I sure do hope he keeps doing it!!
        Originally posted by Greg Ambrose on 3/7/2010
        The fact that you BC fans revel in the superiority of your team in an admittedly weak league leads me to believe you will be more sorely disappointed when the end comes than we will.

        Comment


        • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

          Very well laid out, Friend. I'll give him a pass on the '13 and '14 players and Duane since most of that was due to Parker's poor recruiting at the end of his time and the expected change in recruiting that comes with any coaching move. Letunov is also unfair to pin on Quinn as that was 100% a non-academic performance admissions issue.

          That said, I completely agree with the revolving door being very troubling. Of course when you get players of Eichel, McAvoy, and Keller's level it's known that they'll leave after a year or two and I'm fine with that. But the number of second, third, and fourth liners who've left, regressed, or made their way to the bench is very concerning. Of the two classes of players he's had for four years the only one listed there who definitively improved in a meaningful way over his time is Doyle. Hickey hasn't and arguably has regressed, Phelps/MacLeod/Diffley have flatlined at below average while getting sent to the back of the lineup in favor of newer players, Roberto and Kelley made minor improvements in their final year but nothing huge. He can get a pass on Olsson due to his injury issues, but his season this year has been VERY disappointing.

          It's become very clear that to win in college you need both the high-talent Eichel/Keller guys in addition to a good amount of seasoned upperclassmen who contribute both on the score sheet and off. The latter is very difficult to achieve when you're getting bumped to the back of the line in your sophomore and junior seasons and/or players are transferring out at that time. I'm concerned something similar is beginning to happen with Curry and Chabot, both of whom showed promise last year as four-year contributors, but whose growth this year has been stymied by being all over the place in the lineup. It's very, very difficult for anyone to grow as a player when he's being jumbled in and out of the lineup - one night on the first line, the next on the third line, the next benched, the next on the fourth line. DQ needs to find consistency with who he's playing night in and night out and stop this nightly game of roulette.
          ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

          Comment


          • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

            Originally posted by Nick Papagiorgio View Post
            Just stepping back for a bit, it really is crazy that the national preseason #2 is sitting all the way at 32 in the PWR right now. They really do play like #2. And while I don't follow as closely as I used to, I don't believe any major injuries have really crept up and bit BU. I'm not sure what Quinn is doing but I sure do hope he keeps doing it!!
            The #2 ranking was ridiculous. This team absolutely should not be playing like the 32nd best team in the country, but in no way is #2 even on their best day. This group's ceiling is probably somewhere in the 11-14 range.
            ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

            Comment


            • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

              Originally posted by brassbonanza View Post
              The #2 ranking was ridiculous. This team absolutely should not be playing like the 32nd best team in the country, but in no way is #2 even on their best day. This group's ceiling is probably somewhere in the 11-14 range.
              Forgot to mention I am not a fan of preseason polls (or polls in general, especially when you consider which folks get to vote).

              No doubt they should be playing better with the talent they have, 32 is a disaster no matter how you slice it though and it all points to Quinn. People forget BU lost a lot last year and I personally expected them to have some trouble scoring. How is Harper looking this year? Expected to see a big jump from him.
              Originally posted by Greg Ambrose on 3/7/2010
              The fact that you BC fans revel in the superiority of your team in an admittedly weak league leads me to believe you will be more sorely disappointed when the end comes than we will.

              Comment


              • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

                Originally posted by brassbonanza View Post
                Very well laid out, Friend. I'll give him a pass on the '13 and '14 players and Duane since most of that was due to Parker's poor recruiting at the end of his time and the expected change in recruiting that comes with any coaching move. Letunov is also unfair to pin on Quinn as that was 100% a non-academic performance admissions issue.

                That said, I completely agree with the revolving door being very troubling. Of course when you get players of Eichel, McAvoy, and Keller's level it's known that they'll leave after a year or two and I'm fine with that. But the number of second, third, and fourth liners who've left, regressed, or made their way to the bench is very concerning. Of the two classes of players he's had for four years the only one listed there who definitively improved in a meaningful way over his time is Doyle. Hickey hasn't and arguably has regressed, Phelps/MacLeod/Diffley have flatlined at below average while getting sent to the back of the lineup in favor of newer players, Roberto and Kelley made minor improvements in their final year but nothing huge. He can get a pass on Olsson due to his injury issues, but his season this year has been VERY disappointing.

                It's become very clear that to win in college you need both the high-talent Eichel/Keller guys in addition to a good amount of seasoned upperclassmen who contribute both on the score sheet and off. The latter is very difficult to achieve when you're getting bumped to the back of the line in your sophomore and junior seasons and/or players are transferring out at that time. I'm concerned something similar is beginning to happen with Curry and Chabot, both of whom showed promise last year as four-year contributors, but whose growth this year has been stymied by being all over the place in the lineup. It's very, very difficult for anyone to grow as a player when he's being jumbled in and out of the lineup - one night on the first line, the next on the third line, the next benched, the next on the fourth line. DQ needs to find consistency with who he's playing night in and night out and stop this nightly game of roulette.
                Bingo! As opposed to recruiting 5-6 stars, more consideration for "the mix" is needed and as you say, a combination of upperclassmen with some frosh stars as well as frosh role players who will eventually become the 4 year guys you need to win. To do this, Quinn has to be more vigilant and intentional with the number of high-end frosh he brings in. This will allow for better balance (both on the ice and off) and I think a better and winning formula for BU (or any high-end hockey program for that matter).

                Comment


                • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

                  Originally posted by defkit View Post
                  Friend: any chance you could do a similar listing for the last 5 years of Parker's tenure? My gut was that the rate of change hasn't increased, we had lots of this with Parker. But seeing all the names you listed has me wondering.

                  One thing that we don't seem to have as much of, that we had with Parker is "decommits" who were likely going the MJ route all along (a la Werek, Esposito, D'Angelo). I wonder if that is a change impacting more than BU, or if Quinn is doing something differently.

                  Sherwood was one who did, but he sort of had to since he didn't get drafted. If he had been drafted (and BU lobbied to try to make it happen), he likely would have still come to BU.

                  Here's what I could come up with for Parker's final years (after the 2009 title). Again, this doesn't exclude expected early departures during that period like Wilson, Shattenkirk, Bonino, Cohen, Chiasson. Also excludes Trivino, who was dismissed during his Senior year.


                  2009
                  Strait - forgoes Senior year & Captaincy to sign w/ Islanders right before season starts

                  2010
                  Saponari bros. - dismissed from program

                  2011
                  Warsofsky - signs w/ Bruins
                  deAngelo - decommited, goes OHL
                  Erne - decommited, goes QMJHL

                  2012
                  Coyle - departs for QMJHL mid-season
                  Nicastro - dismissed from team
                  Courtnall - departs before Senior year for reasons unknown
                  Clendening - signs w/ Blackhawks (IMO, should have returned to BU)
                  Polesello - BU w/d offer due to off-ice issues. Ends up @ UVM for 1+ seasons before departing for OHL. Finished his career at U. of Western Ontario.
                  Hetnik - decommited, goes to UMASS.

                  2013
                  Cisse - departs for QMJHL mid-season. Plays 27 games in Q; 10 games in ECHL.
                  Myron - departs for ECHL mid-season. Plays 34 ECHL games across 3 seasons.


                  As for Kole Sherwood, IIRC he was surprisingly drafted by his hometown Columbus Blue Jackets in 2015. From what I read his family used that as leverage for CBJ to sign him to ELC w/ a bonus commensurate to the cost of tuition + room/board for 4 years @ BU.
                  Last edited by Friend_of_BU_Hockey; 01-08-2018, 12:30 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by The Zlax45 View Post
                    You simply don't get it...that was last year and shouldn't the best players be playing?
                    Not sure how many times I can say it. It's perfectly normal to consider what someone did on the WJC stage previously. That's why most of the time returnees get a leg up even if someone might have better numbers that year. Under your scenario we would just use a computer to spit out the team with the best stats that particular year. It has never worked that way.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

                      Originally posted by bothman View Post
                      Bingo! As opposed to recruiting 5-6 stars, more consideration for "the mix" is needed and as you say, a combination of upperclassmen with some frosh stars as well as frosh role players who will eventually become the 4 year guys you need to win. To do this, Quinn has to be more vigilant and intentional with the number of high-end frosh he brings in. This will allow for better balance (both on the ice and off) and I think a better and winning formula for BU (or any high-end hockey program for that matter).
                      Despite my concerns, I do think there's been an increased focus on Quinn's part on finding a better mix of players going forward. When looking at this year's Freshmen class, only Tkachuk and Bowers are legit flight risks prior to their upperclassmen years. The remaining players in that class are all expected to be 4-year players. As for next year's incoming class, only Farabee and maybe Wise seem like 2-3 year players whereas the others are projected to be 4 year guys. The same appears to be true so far for the 2019-2020 incoming class.

                      I think there was a need on BU's part early on during Quinn's tenure to be aggressive and get guys like McAvoy and Keller. There definitely seems to have been a lot of trial/error on his part where it took some time for him to determine what the right mix of each incoming class might consist of. It still remains TBD whether that mix is right, as questions remain from an in-game coaching & player development standpoint.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

                        Originally posted by brassbonanza View Post
                        But the number of second, third, and fourth liners who've left, regressed, or made their way to the bench is very concerning. Of the two classes of players he's had for four years the only one listed there who definitively improved in a meaningful way over his time is Doyle. Hickey hasn't and arguably has regressed, Phelps/MacLeod/Diffley have flatlined at below average while getting sent to the back of the lineup in favor of newer players, Roberto and Kelley made minor improvements in their final year but nothing huge. He can get a pass on Olsson due to his injury issues, but his season this year has been VERY disappointing.

                        It's become very clear that to win in college you need both the high-talent Eichel/Keller guys in addition to a good amount of seasoned upperclassmen who contribute both on the score sheet and off. The latter is very difficult to achieve when you're getting bumped to the back of the line in your sophomore and junior seasons and/or players are transferring out at that time. I'm concerned something similar is beginning to happen with Curry and Chabot, both of whom showed promise last year as four-year contributors, but whose growth this year has been stymied by being all over the place in the lineup. It's very, very difficult for anyone to grow as a player when he's being jumbled in and out of the lineup - one night on the first line, the next on the third line, the next benched, the next on the fourth line. DQ needs to find consistency with who he's playing night in and night out and stop this nightly game of roulette.

                        I wonder whether part of the coaching philosophy the last 2 years has been to give his Freshmen each year as much of a shot to prove whether/not they belong in the lineup regularly; if they don't, then put an upperclassmen depth player back in.

                        The current BU roster is overrun with 3rd/4th line types; I don't think DQ isn't as enamored with his roster as he wants us to believe. Unlike JP, I don't think DQ can motivate/coach up lesser players the way JP could, and thus the struggles in the bottom part of BU's lineup and the DQ-coached BU teams being very top heavy in scoring.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

                          Originally posted by Friend_of_BU_Hockey View Post
                          Despite my concerns, I do think there's been an increased focus on Quinn's part on finding a better mix of players going forward. When looking at this year's Freshmen class, only Tkachuk and Bowers are legit flight risks prior to their upperclassmen years. The remaining players in that class are all expected to be 4-year players. As for next year's incoming class, only Farabee and maybe Wise seem like 2-3 year players whereas the others are projected to be 4 year guys. The same appears to be true so far for the 2019-2020 incoming class.

                          I think there was a need on BU's part early on during Quinn's tenure to be aggressive and get guys like McAvoy and Keller. There definitely seems to have been a lot of trial/error on his part where it took some time for him to determine what the right mix of each incoming class might consist of. It still remains TBD whether that mix is right, as questions remain from an in-game coaching & player development standpoint.
                          Agree again with everything here and I think the underlined sentence is most pertinent. He's doing a better job of bringing in the mix, but he's developing them very questionably. Again, Curry and Chabot are the glaring examples on the current roster. Similar arguments can be made for MacLeod and Diffley during their sophomore and junior seasons.
                          ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

                          Comment


                          • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

                            Originally posted by Friend_of_BU_Hockey View Post

                            Unlike JP, I don't think DQ can motivate/coach up lesser players the way JP could, and thus the struggles in the bottom part of BU's lineup and the DQ-coached BU teams being very top heavy in scoring.
                            Are we talking in the 1970's here? Motivation wasn't exactly Parker's strong suit over the back half of his career.
                            Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

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                            • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

                              Originally posted by Friend_of_BU_Hockey View Post
                              As for Kole Sherwood, IIRC he was surprisingly drafted by his hometown Columbus Blue Jackets in 2015. From what I read his family used that as leverage for CBJ to sign him to ELC w/ a bonus commensurate to the cost of tuition + room/board for 4 years @ BU.
                              Thanks for posting. Wow, some names I forgot about. Myron definitely jumps out as having made a bad decision.

                              I'm almost positive Kole was not drafted, but he was signed right after the draft by Columbus. They brought he and his older brother in for a "tryout" or something, and Kole left with an offer right after the draft. We heard at the roundtable that summer that because he was not drafted, it made signing much more of an attractive offer. I don't remember the details, but it was some sort of issue with how the agreements are with the CHL, NHL. IIRC, he also progressed tremendously after he committed to BU, and they were going to have to move him up if they wanted to keep the NCAA as a viable option for him (which the coach said they were likely going to do).
                              BU Hockey: The trophy case is once again growing

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                              • Re: Boston University - 2017-2018 season - thread numero uno

                                Originally posted by brassbonanza View Post
                                Agree again with everything here and I think the underlined sentence is most pertinent. He's doing a better job of bringing in the mix, but he's developing them very questionably. Again, Curry and Chabot are the glaring examples on the current roster. Similar arguments can be made for MacLeod and Diffley during their sophomore and junior seasons.
                                Lots of really good points by brass, Friend, and bothman in this conversation. I think Phelps is a perfect example. He was brought in to be a 4-year guy. Good player, but not likely a flight risk. But with so many recruits every year, he hasn't been a regular starter in the lineup. Is his lack of contribution the effect or the cause?

                                If Chabot wasn't injured during his extended absence, then I think that is a perfect example of the problem. He was very good at his role last year - An older (experienced) 4th liner that could be counted on to make smart plays, stay out of the box, etc. Why would he be benched for such a long period of time?
                                BU Hockey: The trophy case is once again growing

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