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Thread: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Your grandfather's farm is really worth more than $10 million?
    Good farm land is not cheap. We have obviously expanded from the farm my grandpa grew up on, it was needed in order to stay solvent. A 200 acre farm will not support a family anymore. We now have about 2000 acres and the current valuation of land in our county is about $7000 an acre. Add in probably about $5m work of equipment needed to run that land, and the value of buildings and other structures needed to run a farm, and it is worth well over $10 million. If we downsized significantly, there would no longer be enough income to remain profitable.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I thought this shift had already taken. Deliberately not researching the numbers, my layman's uninformed guess would be that farmers were 99% of the workforce in 1900 and 9% of the workforce in 2000.

    Edit: after a quick google I'm way off on the numbers but pretty close in the ratio:

    Yeah that shift has already happened, but another one is coming.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    I disagree. Family farms sitting on millions of dollars in land are no different than Trump's dad sitting on millions of real estate in NYC. It still leads to an intergenerational wealth transfer which you have said repeatedly on here is bad.
    I dunno, I may be falling for the Bucolic Fallacy but it seems to me that owning a $10M farm is basically just owning a farm. That sh-t's expensive and the profit margin is tiny. Having a $10M house, OTOH, means you're a fat f-ck who I want to hang on a hook and bleed until your desiccated body decomposes.

    It's a perception thing.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I dunno, I may be falling for the Bucolic Fallacy but it seems to me that owning a $10M farm is basically just owning a farm. That sh-t's expensive and the profit margin is tiny. Having a $10M house, OTOH, means you're a fat f-ck who I want to hang on a hook and bleed until your desiccated body decomposes.

    It's a perception thing.
    Completely agree.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    It's not that hard to picture $10 mil. after jotting down the numbers. Land is one thing, but equipment is another. A single combine costs as much as a decently good house in most of the country ($300-500k). After adding on hardware to the various base tractors, you can end up with a value in 7-figures for equipment alone fairly easily.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by bigblue_dl View Post
    I know, just pointing out that your number is absurdly low, which was probably intentional.

    But, even still, the number of family owned farms has decreased by huge numbers in the last 30-40 years. Also, something to know, the average farmer in the US is 56 years old. We're heading for a very big shift in agriculture in the US, and farms are going to be consolidated even more as less young people are staying home to farm. I made the decision to take over the family business from my dad when he retires, my ancestors put too much work into that land for me to just let it all fall apart. I have about 9 years left of being an engineer, then I'll be quitting my job and taking over the farm.

    In Maine it's becoming more common for farmer's to place their farmland under a conservation easement. Farmer sells or donates a conservation easement to Maine Farmland Trust and the land is no longer valued at what it would be on the open market (because, for example, it can't be developed into a housing subdivision). Farmer leaves the farm to his kids (it's now valued at less) or sells to a younger up and coming farmer (that Maine Farmland Trust helps find and acquire available farmland). The trust also helps people find and buy farmland on the open market (they might assist with the purchase on the condition that they get assigned a conservation easement on the land that restricts its use to farming). They expect about 400,000 acres of Maine's farmland to change hands over the next decade and many of the farmers have no succession plan (and we've already lost lots of farmland, except in a couple regions of the state that still have a agriculture based economy)

    This is mostly used on small family farms of a few hundred acres.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigblue_dl View Post
    Good farm land is not cheap. We have obviously expanded from the farm my grandpa grew up on, it was needed in order to stay solvent. A 200 acre farm will not support a family anymore. We now have about 2000 acres and the current valuation of land in our county is about $7000 an acre. Add in probably about $5m work of equipment needed to run that land, and the value of buildings and other structures needed to run a farm, and it is worth well over $10 million. If we downsized significantly, there would no longer be enough income to remain profitable.
    The equipment and buildings can all be depreciated, and any debt (ie, mortgages/vehicle loans/etc) cuts into the value of the potential inheritance as well.

    Put another way, if the net value of the farm is over 10,000,000 after taking all that into account, I'm still not feeling sorry for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I dunno, I may be falling for the Bucolic Fallacy but it seems to me that owning a $10M farm is basically just owning a farm. That sh-t's expensive and the profit margin is tiny. Having a $10M house, OTOH, means you're a fat f-ck who I want to hang on a hook and bleed until your desiccated body decomposes.

    It's a perception thing.
    I know plenty of people who "own" a farm that do nothing but lease the land to the actual farmer and collect rent checks.

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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by bigblue_dl View Post
    I'm not even against the estate taxes, and possibly increasing them. I just think there need to be protections in there for certain situations. One of which is when family businesses would be destroyed. Regardless of what people think, everyone benefits from having independently owned and operated farms, and not having production owned by 2-3 huge companies.
    You're for estate taxes, until they affect you. How typical of many advocates of tax increases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    I know plenty of people who "own" a farm that do nothing but lease the land to the actual farmer and collect rent checks.
    Which is the effect of what you are advocating! How is this better than letting the farmers keep the farms?

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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    Which is the effect of what you are advocating! How is this better than letting the farmers keep the farms?
    Because it achieves the globalist goals for domination. A return to Middle Age serfdom, as it were.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer View Post
    Which is the effect of what you are advocating! How is this better than letting the farmers keep the farms?
    The farmer is dead. If his offspring also want to farm, great, but why should they be given preferential treatment over anyone else's offspring?

    Why should Joe Schmoe get a 10 million dollar inheritance tax free just because it's farm land instead of stocks or a midrise condo?

    If Warren Buffett wanted to leave Berkshire Hathaway to his kids to run, would you be okay with that being tax free? They're just continuing to run the family business, after all.
    Last edited by unofan; 09-28-2017 at 12:16 PM.

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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    The equipment and buildings can all be depreciated, and any debt (ie, mortgages/vehicle loans/etc) cuts into the value of the potential inheritance as well.

    Put another way, if the net value of the farm is over 10,000,000 after taking all that into account, I'm still not feeling sorry for you.
    And it is obvious that you have no understanding of the economics of agriculture. Do some studying and get back to me. Until then, I'm not going to take anything you say seriously.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by bigblue_dl View Post
    Good farm land is not cheap. We have obviously expanded from the farm my grandpa grew up on, it was needed in order to stay solvent. A 200 acre farm will not support a family anymore. We now have about 2000 acres and the current valuation of land in our county is about $7000 an acre. Add in probably about $5m work of equipment needed to run that land, and the value of buildings and other structures needed to run a farm, and it is worth well over $10 million. If we downsized significantly, there would no longer be enough income to remain profitable.
    2000 acres and assuming southern MN corn dirt (or RRV spuds and beets dirt) and $10 million is an easy book value number to reach. And in today's depressed farm economy 2000 acres is minimum to be viable any more*. All that said, it's book value; there's no liquidity there. It's all assets.

    If a farmer had to come up with 10% inheritance tax on those assets, well, there's no liquidity, no cash.
    And, as a wise business minded friend once told me: When you're out of cash, you're out of business.

    Want to end family farms? Inheritance tax them. They'll be gone in a generation.


    *Heck, you need that to turn some of the new big farm equipment.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    The farmer is dead. If his offspring also want to farm, great, but why should they be given preferential treatment over anyone else's offspring?

    Why should Joe Schmoe get a 10 million dollar inheritance tax free just because it's farm land instead of stocks or a midrise condo?

    If Warren Buffett wanted to leave Berkshire Hathaway to his kids to run, would you be okay with that being tax free? They're just continuing to run the family business, after all.
    Probably lobbied for a loophole to allow him to do it.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    2000 acres and assuming southern MN corn dirt (or RRV spuds and beets dirt) and $10 million is an easy book value number to reach. And in today's depressed farm economy 2000 acres is minimum to be viable any more*. All that said, it's book value; there's no liquidity there. It's all assets.

    If a farmer had to come up with 10% inheritance tax on those assets, well, there's no liquidity, no cash.
    And, as a wise business minded friend once told me: When you're out of cash, you're out of business.

    Want to end family farms? Inheritance tax them. They'll be gone in a generation.


    *Heck, you need that to turn some of the new big farm equipment.
    Nailed it.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    The equipment and buildings can all be depreciated, and any debt (ie, mortgages/vehicle loans/etc) cuts into the value of the potential inheritance as well.

    Put another way, if the net value of the farm is over 10,000,000 after taking all that into account, I'm still not feeling sorry for you.
    The dirt can not be depreciated.
    Actually, it's taxed as real property by the township/county and school district.
    And the dirt is the primary book value of the family farm.

    So when dad dies and passes the farm to daughter and son-in-law they just forfeit 10% or more of the dirt?
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    The farmer is dead. If his offspring also want to farm, great, but why should they be given preferential treatment over anyone else's offspring?

    Why should Joe Schmoe get a 10 million dollar inheritance tax free just because it's farm land instead of stocks or a midrise condo?

    If Warren Buffett wanted to leave Berkshire Hathaway to his kids to run, would you be okay with that being tax free? They're just continuing to run the family business, after all.
    One of the differences is the tangible and continuous investment needed to run a family farm. Traditionally they are supporting 3 generations at once, who were all living and working there full time. If grampa was bedridden the last three years while junior ran the farm, why should grampa's death negate the investment junior has made with his first 50 years of life?
    It doesn't equate to someone who makes a killing playing the stock market or flipping real estate. I agree we should be taxing that stuff.

    The big benefit of keeping small family farms going isn't to frustrate your desire to "get back" at people who are better off than you. Just put aside the jealousy for a second and think about biological diversity, pollution, climate change, and genetic engineering. It benefits everyone.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by bigblue_dl View Post
    Nailed it.
    This UND guy had a farmer father. We didn't have much dirt and we were surrounded by ever expanding family farms. Dad saw what was coming. He sent me to UND to become an engineer.

    My dad stole that idea from his father-in-law because that's exactly what mom's dad did with three of his four sons.

    Right now, I have a cousin that is farming and only making it because he inherited his dad's family farm, his mom's family farm, and his wife's family farm.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    This UND guy had a farmer father. We didn't have much dirt and we were surrounded by ever expanding family farms. He saw what was coming. He sent me to UND to become an engineer.

    My dad stole that idea from his father-in-law because that's exactly what mom's dad did with three of his four sons.

    Right now, I have a cousin that is farming and only making it because he inherited dad's family farm, mom's family farm, and his wife's family farm.
    I went to school to be an engineer, I wasn't planning on taking over the farm. My cousin loved farming, he was a few years younger than me, but he was going to take over the farm. He died in an accident a few years ago, so I'm stepping in to take over the business in his place.
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