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Thread: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    Oh noes. Instead you'd have to live off the proceeds of selling at least 10 million in land, even after taxes. The horrors.

    And if you haven't already incorporated your family farm (or LLC or some other formal business structure), that in and of itself is gross mismanagement.
    That's the problem. You have to sell the land to pay the taxes. But of course, once you sell the land, you're not really farmers anymore, are you?

    There is an old saying I used to recall farmers in North Dakota make regarding farmland. "They're not making it anymore." Farmers don't buy land to sell it. They buy it to farm it, and pass on to their children so they can farm it.

    The effect of your policy, by the way, would be to consolidate virtually all farmland into the hands of just a couple of companies, which isn't exactly ideal to my way of thinking.

    The problem is even more profound when the family business is not a farm, where you can sell off a quarter or two, but something like a trucking company. I have a good friend who, with is father, have built up a family trucking company into an enterprise that has to be worth millions of dollars when you take into account the assets, but it's not like they have $10 million sitting around in the bank to pay taxes on it when the old man dies.

    By the way, how does incorporating the family farm help, assuming you can do it with the laws regulating corporate farming in a lot of states? Don't you have $10 million in "shares" which then get taxed? Where is that money coming from?
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by BassAle View Post
    I figured it out -- it's "Marketplace" that I hear the Koch Industry add, which is produced by WGBH, which receives money from Koch Industries.
    He was able to get Independent Television Service (part of PBS that funds and distributes independent films) to pull it's funding for "Citizen Koch"
    Well there you go. You sussed it out, sort of. I previously posted that Koch apparently hasn't donated to WGBH since he resigned from the board in 2013. Marketplace is produced by American Public Media (not WGBH) which is the national production arm of Minnesota Public Radio. Koch Industries public arm (Koch Companies Public Sector LLC) is a regional corporate sponsor of MPR. (There are 26 regional and 28 National Corporate sponsors) If you do the math it appears to be less than $500k for a regional sponsorship role.

    I don't like the Koch's any more than anyone else here does, but you have to admit, controlling NPR for $500k is a pretty crafty maneuver. And it's so obvious they forced out Garrison Keillor!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    ... According to the article Toronto and Vancouver have the most overpriced real estate in North America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartanforlife4 View Post
    Jones Act will be waived. Apparently the ports weren't that crowded. Now to make Puerto Rico a permanent exception, like the USVI, or disbanding it all together so that Hawaii, Alaska, and other territories are no longer weighed down with needless extra costs.
    If only that was all the Jones Act does.

    Ol' half-a-brain from a landlocked state surely knows all the factors at play. (talking about McCain here, as he's the one who has some continuous gripe about this)

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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    What a bunch of bullchit.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...-class-tax-cut

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    Pressed again, Cohn said: “The wealthy are not getting a tax cut under our plan.”
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    See. Lying works. And the Republicans NEVER STOP LYING. NEVER.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Jones act may be waived but the state department website is apparently saying evacuees passports will be held until they pay the full fare of evacuation. Hilarious when you consider Donald stiffed then for like 33M right?

    http://hill.cm/ISlmhpK

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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    The Kochs are not on the board of NPR...they didnt buy it either. Kep you need to vett your sources better.
    I never said they "bought it." If they're not on the board of NPR I retract that statement, though. You are right that I read that but did not Snopes. Mea culpa.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    Oh noes. Instead you'd have to live off the proceeds of selling at least 10 million in land, even after taxes. The horrors.
    You're missing the problem, and it is a problem. It's not that one guy or one family will be financially crippled by paying taxes on their inheritance. It's, what becomes of the farm? The pattern for 100 years has been consolidation of farmland into the hands of mega corporations with automated processes, crap tons of environmental pollution, and patented crop genetics that are negatively affecting every citizen.
    When one family with 500 acres screws up, it doesn't hurt us. When Monsanto devises something that kills off a species of pollinator across the US, it's now a public health crisis.
    Take a look at what percentage of Americans are still involved in food production compared to generations past, and how concentrated that sector is now. It's an enormous crisis.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    That's the problem. You have to sell the land to pay the taxes. But of course, once you sell the land, you're not really farmers anymore, are you?

    There is an old saying I used to recall farmers in North Dakota make regarding farmland. "They're not making it anymore." Farmers don't buy land to sell it. They buy it to farm it, and pass on to their children so they can farm it.

    The effect of your policy, by the way, would be to consolidate virtually all farmland into the hands of just a couple of companies, which isn't exactly ideal to my way of thinking.

    The problem is even more profound when the family business is not a farm, where you can sell off a quarter or two, but something like a trucking company. I have a good friend who, with is father, have built up a family trucking company into an enterprise that has to be worth millions of dollars when you take into account the assets, but it's not like they have $10 million sitting around in the bank to pay taxes on it when the old man dies.

    By the way, how does incorporating the family farm help, assuming you can do it with the laws regulating corporate farming in a lot of states? Don't you have $10 million in "shares" which then get taxed? Where is that money coming from?
    I'm not even against the estate taxes, and possibly increasing them. I just think there need to be protections in there for certain situations. One of which is when family businesses would be destroyed. Regardless of what people think, everyone benefits from having independently owned and operated farms, and not having production owned by 2-3 huge companies.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Family farms are always used as a skirt to hide GOP policies favoring the super rich behind. For the record I am all for sheltering the family farm from my rules. But I also have a feeling there are only like 42 of them left in the whole country.

    Fun fact: I have a college friend who runs a chicken farm that has been in his family for generations.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by bigblue_dl View Post
    I'm not even against the estate taxes, and possibly increasing them. I just think there need to be protections in there for certain situations. One of which is when family businesses would be destroyed. Regardless of what people think, everyone benefits from having independently owned and operated farms, and not having production owned by 2-3 huge companies.
    I agree with this completely, but like I said, it's used as a human shield for the super rich. I would think it is relatively to protect the actual family farmers and other independent small business owners while also F-CKING THE GODD-MN WALTON CHILDREN UP THE AS-S.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Family farms are always used as a skirt to hide GOP policies favoring the super rich behind. For the record I am all for sheltering the family farm from my rules. But I also have a feeling there are only like 42 of them left in the whole country.

    Fun fact: I have a college friend who runs a chicken farm that has been in his family for generations.
    There are more than 42 family farms in the small county in MN where our farm is.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by bigblue_dl View Post
    There are more than 42 family farms in the small county in MN where our farm is.
    I was being facetious.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I was being facetious.
    I know, just pointing out that your number is absurdly low, which was probably intentional.

    But, even still, the number of family owned farms has decreased by huge numbers in the last 30-40 years. Also, something to know, the average farmer in the US is 56 years old. We're heading for a very big shift in agriculture in the US, and farms are going to be consolidated even more as less young people are staying home to farm. I made the decision to take over the family business from my dad when he retires, my ancestors put too much work into that land for me to just let it all fall apart. I have about 9 years left of being an engineer, then I'll be quitting my job and taking over the farm.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by bigblue_dl View Post
    There are more than 42 family farms in the small county in MN where our farm is.
    Your grandfather's farm is really worth more than $10 million?
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Well there has to be a way to protect the family farm and still keep the various tax structures in place. Of course that would take people thinking and no one in Govt. does that.
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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    Well there has to be a way to protect the family farm and still keep the various tax structures in place. Of course that would take people thinking and no one in Govt. does that.
    They're thinking they're just really cynical about it. They know that they can protect the small farm and raise taxes on billionaires but they'd rather just use the farm as a political pawn for their dumb supporters and use it to lower taxes on the top 1%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Family farms are always used as a skirt to hide GOP policies favoring the super rich behind. For the record I am all for sheltering the family farm from my rules. But I also have a feeling there are only like 42 of them left in the whole country.

    Fun fact: I have a college friend who runs a chicken farm that has been in his family for generations.
    I disagree. Family farms sitting on millions of dollars in land are no different than Trump's dad sitting on millions of real estate in NYC. It still leads to an intergenerational wealth transfer which you have said repeatedly on here is bad.

    You want to avoid mega corporate farms owning all farmland, start enforcing anti trust laws. The estate tax isn't the issue on that front.

    And if you still want to carve out exceptions to the estate tax, then the trade-off is abolishing all stepped up basis upon death and treating capital gains as ordinary income. That way when the land that your great great grandpa bought for $1/acre does inevitably get sold for $10,000/acre, you're paying full taxes on $9,999.

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    Re: POTUS 45.20 - Doddering Dotards Dodging Detente

    Quote Originally Posted by bigblue_dl View Post
    I know, just pointing out that your number is absurdly low, which was probably intentional.

    But, even still, the number of family owned farms has decreased by huge numbers in the last 30-40 years. Also, something to know, the average farmer in the US is 56 years old. We're heading for a very big shift in agriculture in the US, and farms are going to be consolidated even more as less young people are staying home to farm. I made the decision to take over the family business from my dad when he retires, my ancestors put too much work into that land for me to just let it all fall apart. I have about 9 years left of being an engineer, then I'll be quitting my job and taking over the farm.
    I thought this shift had already taken. Deliberately not researching the numbers, my layman's uninformed guess would be that farmers were 99% of the workforce in 1900 and 9% of the workforce in 2000.

    Edit: after a quick google I'm way off on the numbers but pretty close in the ratio:



    Here's some wonderful comparative data from Europe:

    Last edited by Kepler; 09-28-2017 at 10:41 AM.
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