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WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

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  • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

    Originally posted by manurespreader View Post
    That apathy argument was exactly what the Denver people used to justify the establishment of the NCHC to their fans. The attendance was dropping and games against the lower teams, such as Tech, were poorly attended. Which justified changing to a league where there would be top competition coming in every home game. Except it didn't work out that way and attendance kept dropping or at least did not improve. So I would not expect to suddenly have more fans at games. Especially if your team is in 5 th place.

    I still think it's the right decision but i'd be asking some questions before I took the leap. How many league games will there be. How will they be determined? What about the playoffs. etc. At least go in with your eyes open, since once you are in, you can't leave.
    I get that....and I think everyone else does too. My comeback would be that Denver and Mankato are two completely different situations. Denver is in a market that's very large, Mankato is not. Mankato hasn't had success in the past, Denver has. Mankato is doing better than ever before and still can't come close to filling the building, has no in conference rivalries and even though we are consistently at the top of the conference, can't generate any buzz and the fan base isn't growing while at the same time expenses are growing. It's not sustainable in the long-term.
    Mess with the bull, you get the horns.

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    • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

      Originally posted by Bale View Post
      I get that....and I think everyone else does too. My comeback would be that Denver and Mankato are two completely different situations. Denver is in a market that's very large, Mankato is not. Mankato hasn't had success in the past, Denver has. Mankato is doing better than ever before and still can't come close to filling the building, has no in conference rivalries and even though we are consistently at the top of the conference, can't generate any buzz and the fan base isn't growing while at the same time expenses are growing. It's not sustainable in the long-term.
      Agreed, but it's two different problems. One is the expenses are increasing and two is the revenues aren't. I think the opponents are a smaller part of that than maybe the university thinks. Certainly lowering travel costs would be big.
      I wonder how many Nacho schools had increases and I also wonder what St Cloud's attendance is looking like the last two years. That might be something like you'd see.
      As BSU says, this might be a bigger problem for the remaining schools than it is for you guys.
      Third this is hypothetical, but it's pretty close to reality come March.
      MTU: Three time NCAA champions.

      It never get's easier, you just go faster. -Greg Lemond

      Comment


      • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

        Hey guys. Jumping in to your conversation. I was talking with my booster club rep and it sounds like the financing for the hockey arena is complete. The building drawings are done and have been viewed by some. We are looking at 4300ish seats, but expected opening might be for the 2020-21 season. They are planning on building this next to the basketball arena, which they want to upgrade. They want to run the projects simultaneously to cut down on costs. There will be a practice rink next to the arena. So hopefully something official comes before the end of the season. On a pay board for ASU football it was said to be happening soon, but that was a post from a month ago. I know folks are getting restless.

        Everything that is said for conference leads me to believe that they still are wanting and expect it to be NCHC. Through different interviews we have heard drips and drabs for next years schedule and it is once again very solid. In a coaches interview this last week it was said 18 home and 16 road games. But I can't imagine the NCHC touching ASU until the building is ready for play.

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        • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

          Originally posted by manurespreader View Post
          Agreed, but it's two different problems. One is the expenses are increasing and two is the revenues aren't. I think the opponents are a smaller part of that than maybe the university thinks. Certainly lowering travel costs would be big.
          I wonder how many Nacho schools had increases and I also wonder what St Cloud's attendance is looking like the last two years. That might be something like you'd see.
          As BSU says, this might be a bigger problem for the remaining schools than it is for you guys.
          Third this is hypothetical, but it's pretty close to reality come March.
          Sean Pickett keeps an online spreadsheet of average yearly attendance (AYA) history for all DI programs https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ztbaiNKn8cvadBKa-HNyTQM1Uua3i1twK1cXpCNFqk/edit#gid=1617103401. St. Cloud AYA for the past 5 years:
          12-13: 4,413
          13-14: 4,501
          14-15: 4,398
          15-16: 4,200
          16-17: 4,297

          Nacho AYA trends for the period '13-'17 (through last season) pulled straight from his spreadsheet:
          CC: -9.3%
          Denver: -3.5%
          Miami State: -14.6%
          UMD: -4%
          UNO: -22.2%
          UND: -1%
          St. Cloud: -2.6%
          WMU: -29.6%

          I'd argue that Denver, UMD, UND, and St. Cloud are basically flat. The rest? Hmmm.....


          For comparison, here's the WCHA team's AYA for the same time period:
          UAH: -17.7%
          UA_: -43.3%
          UAA: -23.8%
          BSU: -17.5%
          BGSU: -6.4%
          FSU: -12.8%
          LSSU: +22.9%
          Tech: +.06%
          MSU: +7.5%
          NMU: -38.4%

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Revs89.2 View Post
            Hey guys. Jumping in to your conversation. I was talking with my booster club rep and it sounds like the financing for the hockey arena is complete. The building drawings are done and have been viewed by some. We are looking at 4300ish seats, but expected opening might be for the 2020-21 season. They are planning on building this next to the basketball arena, which they want to upgrade. They want to run the projects simultaneously to cut down on costs. There will be a practice rink next to the arena. So hopefully something official comes before the end of the season. On a pay board for ASU football it was said to be happening soon, but that was a post from a month ago. I know folks are getting restless.

            Everything that is said for conference leads me to believe that they still are wanting and expect it to be NCHC. Through different interviews we have heard drips and drabs for next years schedule and it is once again very solid. In a coaches interview this last week it was said 18 home and 16 road games. But I can't imagine the NCHC touching ASU until the building is ready for play.
            When the Coyotes move to Houston, Gila River will be begging you to come! LOL! Great to see the ASU fans in Vegas.
            "The use of common sense and logic will not be tolerated and may result in fine and/or suspension."- Western Professional Hockey League By-laws. 1999-2000.

            Comment


            • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

              Originally posted by Revs89.2 View Post
              Hey guys. Jumping in to your conversation. I was talking with my booster club rep and it sounds like the financing for the hockey arena is complete. The building drawings are done and have been viewed by some. We are looking at 4300ish seats, but expected opening might be for the 2020-21 season. They are planning on building this next to the basketball arena, which they want to upgrade. They want to run the projects simultaneously to cut down on costs. There will be a practice rink next to the arena. So hopefully something official comes before the end of the season. On a pay board for ASU football it was said to be happening soon, but that was a post from a month ago. I know folks are getting restless.

              Everything that is said for conference leads me to believe that they still are wanting and expect it to be NCHC. Through different interviews we have heard drips and drabs for next years schedule and it is once again very solid. In a coaches interview this last week it was said 18 home and 16 road games. But I can't imagine the NCHC touching ASU until the building is ready for play.
              Not surprising, Nachos make the most sense for ASU for the long haul. Thanks for the update, Coach Powers!

              Comment


              • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

                FWIW, there are other options for several of the schools. Bowling Green still owns the rights to the name CCHA and there are several regional hockey schools that make sense in a new CCHA conference. I'm not saying that it will happen but I know for a fact that it has been discussed outside of these boards.

                Comment


                • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

                  Originally posted by manurespreader View Post
                  That apathy argument was exactly what the Denver people used to justify the establishment of the NCHC to their fans. The attendance was dropping and games against the lower teams, such as Tech, were poorly attended. Which justified changing to a league where there would be top competition coming in every home game. Except it didn't work out that way and attendance kept dropping or at least did not improve.
                  Denver couldn't even sell-out their medium size rink when they were in the stretch run of their national championship season. Nobody in Denver (other than DU alumni) cares about DU hockey. We already have the Avs and the Eagles an hour North (likely to be converted from a championship winning ECHL franchise to an AHL franchise shortly). An hour to the South you have CC and Air Force. Even being a doormat of the NCHC, CC has a stronger fan base than DU with a market that is 1/10th the size.

                  Attendance at DU games (or lack there of) has nothing to do with who DU is playing against. It's just DU hockey. Denver is a pro sports town, first and foremost. College hockey is 10th best option for the sports fan on a Friday and Saturday night. Even skipping the hockey options I mentioned previously, you still have the Broncos, Nuggets, Rockies, Mammoth (lacrosse), Rapids (soccer), Outlaws (lacrosse), Barbarians (Rugby)... and eventually if you have any sports dollars or time left to spend you get to DU hockey.

                  They are a small fish in a huge pond with a lot of other fish, most of which are larger with stronger fan bases. DU could play North Dakota every weekend and the only way attendance goes up is if UND brings more of their fans to town. Most DU fans likely don't even know in what cities Miami or WMU are located and they don't care. K-zoo, Houghton, Oxford, Huntsville makes no difference to them. Attendance isn't going to change up or down significantly.

                  Ryan
                  Preserving Michigan Tech's Hockey History
                  https://www.johnsonsjerseys.net
                  Originally posted by geezer
                  Tech has the best of everything, even the best jersey nerd.
                  Originally posted by manurespreader
                  ...I really enjoyed listening to Ryan Johnson. He sounded intelligent.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by BGFan View Post
                    FWIW, there are other options for several of the schools. Bowling Green still owns the rights to the name CCHA and there are several regional hockey schools that make sense in a new CCHA conference. I'm not saying that it will happen but I know for a fact that it has been discussed outside of these boards.
                    And I have a hunch that it would include the WCHA schools south of the Mackinac Bridge only. And maybe one above the bridge located on an offramp from I-75.
                    “Demolish the bridges behind you… then there is no choice but to build again.”

                    Live Radio from 100.3

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                    • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

                      So to be a little more specific on the travel. MSU swaps BG for Miami and Ferris for WMU. They swap the Alaska schools for the Colorado schools which is a push cost wise since Alaska schools subsidize travel and since they lose the 4 games exemption. They swap UAH for ASU.( it's likely more money to go to ASU because hotels in Phoenix are so much more expensive) They swap BSU for UND.... and they get games vs Duluth and St Cloud that are in conference instead of out of conference.Some of the time but not all of the time.
                      The only other trips are to Lake State which is kind of far and Houghton which is medium far but Bus-able. The schedule would most likely be unbalanced in both scenarios. So for to me the costs are pretty close. Certainly it takes longer to go to Alaska, but it doesn't save money.
                      Still I think they would do it regardless . I don't see tournament considerations being part of the decision. In both cases they have a good shot because they are a good team either way. The only thing different I see is the fewer total games if you are a nacho team which translates into limited non con games and fewer total home dates.
                      MTU: Three time NCAA champions.

                      It never get's easier, you just go faster. -Greg Lemond

                      Comment


                      • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

                        Originally posted by aparch View Post
                        And I have a hunch that it would include the WCHA schools south of the Mackinac Bridge only. And maybe one above the bridge located on an offramp from I-75.
                        Which is why someone just needs to tell the CO schools to **** off, and form a geographically logical conference with: UND, UMD, BSU, SCSU, MSU, UNO, MTU, NMU.

                        DU and CC can have fun with the Alaskas and ASU, maybe they can convince UNLV to add hockey.

                        The new CCHA can be LSSU, FSU, WSU, MU, BGSU, UAH, RMU, Oakland(Mercyhurst if OU doesn't work out)
                        Having a clear conscience just means you have a bad memory or you had a boring weekend.

                        RIP - Kirby

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                        • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

                          Originally posted by manurespreader View Post
                          So to be a little more specific on the travel. MSU swaps BG for Miami and Ferris for WMU. They swap the Alaska schools for the Colorado schools which is a push cost wise since Alaska schools subsidize travel and since they lose the 4 games exemption. They swap UAH for ASU.( it's likely more money to go to ASU because hotels in Phoenix are so much more expensive) They swap BSU for UND.... and they get games vs Duluth and St Cloud that are in conference instead of out of conference.Some of the time but not all of the time.
                          The only other trips are to Lake State which is kind of far and Houghton which is medium far but Bus-able. The schedule would most likely be unbalanced in both scenarios. So for to me the costs are pretty close. Certainly it takes longer to go to Alaska, but it doesn't save money.
                          Still I think they would do it regardless . I don't see tournament considerations being part of the decision. In both cases they have a good shot because they are a good team either way. The only thing different I see is the fewer total games if you are a nacho team which translates into limited non con games and fewer total home dates.
                          You're kidding yourself if you think that trading the Alaska's for the Colorado schools is a wash. Flights from MSP to Denver is nowhere near the cost of what it is from MSP to anywhere in the WCHA (since Alaska only subsidizes the amount over and above the most expensive trip in the rest of the league). It's also a cheaper flight to Phx than it is to Huntsville (or anyone else in the league), so if there is a cost gain in hotels it's made up in hotels.

                          As for bus-able trips you'd be replacing trips of 7.5 hrs (MTU), 10 hrs (LSSU), 8 hrs (NMU) with trips of 2.25 hrs (St Cloud), 3.75 hrs (Duluth) and 4.75 (Omaha). Is it the end of the world? Of course not. Is it desirable to travel farther? Definitely not.

                          The other thing I would say is that there was a stat that MSU's attendance was up by roughly 7% since the conference shift. Of course, that ignores the fact that the cost of tickets went down by 11% and there is no "premium game" pricing any longer either. This is at a time when this team has averaged 24.5 wins in the 4 full seasons of the new conference alignment. Up from the previous 4 year average of 16.5 wins per season. That's not a small improvement, that's a very big one.

                          This is all to say that there is enough evidence to confidently the interest in the team would increase playing teams that have traditional rivalries with Mankato. They would increase the revenues. And it's not a stretch to say that there would be a decrease in expenses just due to proximity. I don't need to ask anyone with the university to see that interest is waning. I can see it every game. I can hear it when I talk to people. I can feel it when I'm in the arena. I can't talk to buddies or co-workers about hockey because I don't know a single person that went to a university in the rest of the conference (and that's not abnormal).

                          Look, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the conference. If it were just a competitive issue, I wouldn't think twice about staying. It really is the business side of it that I think the NCHC is a better fit for MSU. The geography makes more sense. The makeup of alumni makes more sense. The alignment of the other sports teams within the university makes more sense. The finances just make more sense. I truly believe the quality of the conference will go up (see what happened with the ECAC), but for all the other reasons, the NCHC make more sense for Mankato.
                          Mess with the bull, you get the horns.

                          Comment


                          • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

                            Originally posted by JohnsonsJerseys View Post
                            Denver couldn't even sell-out their medium size rink when they were in the stretch run of their national championship season. Nobody in Denver (other than DU alumni) cares about DU hockey. We already have the Avs and the Eagles an hour North (likely to be converted from a championship winning ECHL franchise to an AHL franchise shortly). An hour to the South you have CC and Air Force. Even being a doormat of the NCHC, CC has a stronger fan base than DU with a market that is 1/10th the size.

                            Attendance at DU games (or lack there of) has nothing to do with who DU is playing against. It's just DU hockey. Denver is a pro sports town, first and foremost. College hockey is 10th best option for the sports fan on a Friday and Saturday night. Even skipping the hockey options I mentioned previously, you still have the Broncos, Nuggets, Rockies, Mammoth (lacrosse), Rapids (soccer), Outlaws (lacrosse), Barbarians (Rugby)... and eventually if you have any sports dollars or time left to spend you get to DU hockey.

                            They are a small fish in a huge pond with a lot of other fish, most of which are larger with stronger fan bases. DU could play North Dakota every weekend and the only way attendance goes up is if UND brings more of their fans to town. Most DU fans likely don't even know in what cities Miami or WMU are located and they don't care. K-zoo, Houghton, Oxford, Huntsville makes no difference to them. Attendance isn't going to change up or down significantly.

                            Ryan
                            to be fair, like much of college hockey, the big ten schools help to draw because there are alums in big cities like denver.
                            Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

                            Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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                            • Originally posted by bigblue_dl View Post
                              Which is why someone just needs to tell the CO schools to **** off, and form a geographically logical conference with: UND, UMD, BSU, SCSU, MSU, UNO, MTU, NMU.

                              DU and CC can have fun with the Alaskas and ASU, maybe they can convince UNLV to add hockey.

                              The new CCHA can be LSSU, FSU, WSU, MU, BGSU, UAH, RMU, Oakland(Mercyhurst if OU doesn't work out)
                              UNLV isn’t adding hockey.
                              "The use of common sense and logic will not be tolerated and may result in fine and/or suspension."- Western Professional Hockey League By-laws. 1999-2000.

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                              • Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

                                Sorry BSU couldn't get the job done last night......
                                Millsy

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