WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

[Bale]

Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

Sorry for being late to the thread. I spent a good amount of my childhood around Mankato and have a Dad who is a grad from there. There are a lot of systemic issues with MSU an why it will always be a challenge to be a hockey school:

MSU is Southern Minnesota's University. Southern MN is not known for their love of hockey. I grew up 1 hour north of Mankato and I don't recall a notable "plains" high school hockey team outside of the Mankato and Metro area. Ok, maybe Rochester. Northern MN was loaded with great hockey teams. Go down around I-90, how many people can skate? They have more in common with Iowa (A non hockey school) than they do SCSU, UMD, and North Dakota. How many towns have hockey rinks? If they do, how busy are they?

When I was a kid, MSU was not known for athletics. When I went to Tech and told my dad we were playing Minnesota State, his response was "We have a hockey team?" He was an athlete and can tell you all about the athletes he spent time with in college, but overall is not a big sports fan. He knew MSU had a great gymnastics, football and soccer program. Hockey, clueless. (I know I didn't go D1 until later) He knew about the Gophers, UMD, SCSU and North Dakota's hockey program. That is going to take a long time to correct.

Your very nice rink is not on campus. I don't care what sport it is, that always kills student attendance/energy.

I don't mean to trash MSU, but somethings are hard to overcome.

For recruits, are guys signing significant pro contracts? Look at Tech's undrafted players. They are going to the ECHL and AHL out of school, with a few flirting with the NHL. By your mentality, MSU shouldn't bother recruiting guys like Brickley or Knutson. They weren't drafted so they must suck.

I fell MTU and MSU have a good rivalry. We are usually fighting for top spot in the WCHA. Our games usually mean something. I think we all wish the lower schools were better. That has to come from them. Like every team, MSU can only worry about what they can control.

I can't disagree with a single point you made other than the bolded part. I, personally, haven't talked about any of the recruiting aspects of it. You're probably thinking of someone else. To clarify though, yes, MSU has a good chunk of kids that are going to either the AHL or ECHL (and a few going to the NHL like Brickley and Nelson a couple years ago).


So, for the rest of this, I need to say, I don't want to argue. People may not agree with the points I make, and that's OK. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's fine. All I want to do is help people understand why there might be some merit to why MSU may feel it's necessary to jump ship.

As to the rest of your points, I think you're making my point for me. I'll try to sum it up the best way I can. MSU's prospective fan base is typically not big into hockey (it's more basketball country). While the rink is off campus, it does serve alcohol and like it or not, that is a draw for a lot of people. We are fighting for recognition after being an afterthought for a lot of years. We're a new-ish program that doesn't have a history to fall back on. In the heart of Gopher country when it comes to every sport other than hockey and in many cases including hockey. We went D1 in 1998 which means there are still kids in college that were born before we were a D1 program (ie...they and their parents are likely Gopher fans). What I'm saying is, you're right. We have a LOT to overcome and it doesn't happen overnight. It takes a long time to do it. There is a certain environment that MSU is dealing with that is unique to us.

Now the question is, what can MSU do to overcome that? And yes, what can the school control? One thing that is we can control is who we play. For our fan base, the schools that people are familiar with reside in the NCHC. You said it yourself, the people in the area know SCSU, UMD, UND and UNO. They MAY have grown familiar with Denver and CC. They personally know grads and fans of those schools. If MSU is to pull in those casual fans, the best way to do it seems to be to play those schools more often in games that mean something from a conference perspective. If the school can control what conference it plays in, the NCHC does make sense.

I agree the MTU and MSU have a good rivalry, at least on the ice. I'm not sure it is for MSU's casual fans. Those casual fans are the ones that can build up animosity and rivalries though and that would be a lot easier if we were playing the same teams as all of our other sports. I don't think this whole thing has a good answer. There are pros and cons for both scenarios. I'm just trying to relay the fact that there is a good case to going to another conference. This isn't just something that people are saying because of the lack in post season success. There are multiple other reasons it may make sense. There is a good case to stay as well, but I do think it's a bit more difficult to build.

[Bale]

Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

IMO, there is no strong reason Nacho would add MSU other than location for MN/ND/maybe UNO and maybe to balance the league if/when they go to 10 teams. (I don't see a real benefit to Nacho expanding.)

To the league as a whole, it offers nothing. It doesn't add a new geography or recruiting base. It isn't a cash cow. Fan support, as stated in this thread, is classic Minnesotan tepid. It is another competitive program with regional prominence, but it doesn't carry a lot of national prominence. A lot of MSU fans will point to a sweep of BU, but national fans will point to BU being down this year instead of MSU being good. MSU's NCAA record doesn't help the argument either.

I can't think of a single reason Miami or WMU would want them in the league. They don't travel overly well and in those parts they are some generic Minnesota school.

The biggest reason there is that there is nearly untapped market in Mankato. We are either the 2nd or 3rd biggest school in the state depending on the year and it's located in a market (as we pointed out) that is almost untapped. There are a ton of alumni in the Twin Cities and being able to find one more way to pull in fans from that market (however small it may be) is a draw. It also gives the conference as a whole one more additional fallback if/when UND falters. No, we are NOT going to make up for the UND fan base as a whole, but any little bit helps when it comes to attendance at the conference tourney.

There is also that travel issue. The trip to Kato is easy for everyone (except for MAYBE WMU and Miami). A flight into MSP with a 80 minute bus ride classifies as easy and relatively cheap.

As for recruiting, any time a league can get one more trip into the state of Minnesota is a good thing. Again, a 80 minute trip from the Twin Cities is simple. No, it's not a NEW geographic location, but it does give one more trip into arguably the best geographic area in the country.

No there isn't one silver bullet, but if you start adding all of them up, maybe it makes sense. IF, and that's a big if, the NCHC decides it makes sense to expand, MSU is a mutually beneficial dance partner.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me and that's fine. Again, though, it's not just a school acting irrationally and without thought.

[purpleinnebraska]

Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

I can't disagree with a single point you made other than the bolded part. I, personally, haven't talked about any of the recruiting aspects of it. You're probably thinking of someone else. To clarify though, yes, MSU has a good chunk of kids that are going to either the AHL or ECHL (and a few going to the NHL like Brickley and Nelson a couple years ago).


So, for the rest of this, I need to say, I don't want to argue. People may not agree with the points I make, and that's OK. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's fine. All I want to do is help people understand why there might be some merit to why MSU may feel it's necessary to jump ship.

As to the rest of your points, I think you're making my point for me. I'll try to sum it up the best way I can. MSU's prospective fan base is typically not big into hockey (it's more basketball country). While the rink is off campus, it does serve alcohol and like it or not, that is a draw for a lot of people. We are fighting for recognition after being an afterthought for a lot of years. We're a new-ish program that doesn't have a history to fall back on. In the heart of Gopher country when it comes to every sport other than hockey and in many cases including hockey. We went D1 in 1998 which means there are still kids in college that were born before we were a D1 program (ie...they and their parents are likely Gopher fans). What I'm saying is, you're right. We have a LOT to overcome and it doesn't happen overnight. It takes a long time to do it. There is a certain environment that MSU is dealing with that is unique to us.

Now the question is, what can MSU do to overcome that? And yes, what can the school control? One thing that is we can control is who we play. For our fan base, the schools that people are familiar with reside in the NCHC. You said it yourself, the people in the area know SCSU, UMD, UND and UNO. They MAY have grown familiar with Denver and CC. They personally know grads and fans of those schools. If MSU is to pull in those casual fans, the best way to do it seems to be to play those schools more often in games that mean something from a conference perspective. If the school can control what conference it plays in, the NCHC does make sense.

I agree the MTU and MSU have a good rivalry, at least on the ice. I'm not sure it is for MSU's casual fans. Those casual fans are the ones that can build up animosity and rivalries though and that would be a lot easier if we were playing the same teams as all of our other sports. I don't think this whole thing has a good answer. There are pros and cons for both scenarios. I'm just trying to relay the fact that there is a good case to going to another conference. This isn't just something that people are saying because of the lack in post season success. There are multiple other reasons it may make sense. There is a good case to stay as well, but I do think it's a bit more difficult to build.

I'll address the recruiting part, since I've made references to recruiting. You win a lot of games with guys like Zeb Knutson. And we have won a lot of games. You win national championships with the Brock Boeser, Nick Schmaltz, Henrik Borgstrom, Will Butcher, Mark Jankowski type guys added into a solid core of guys like Zeb Knutson. And those Boeser, et. al. guys aren't coming to the WCHA. This is the 5th year of realignment. There have been zero WCHA teams in the Frozen Four in that time frame. You think that's just bad luck?
I've had a lot of fun attending Mav games. We've had a ton of wins. Maybe that's enough. But if people think we just need a couple of good breaks and we can win the national championship playing out of the WCHA, they're kidding themselves.

[Bale]

Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

And thats where i disagree. There is no reason this years team couldnt have or shouldnt have had a different result. Same goes for 3 years ago.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

If no, then why are we still talking about this non-issue?

Because certain Tech fans are obsessed with getting jilted by the NCHC.

[manurespreader]

Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

Because certain Tech fans are obsessed with getting jilted by the NCHC.

Yep.
Also I would agree with Bale, Mankato was as good a team as Duluth was, just didn't get the breaks. I don't think Duluth has more talent.

[Lost_Husky]

Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

I'll address the recruiting part, since I've made references to recruiting. You win a lot of games with guys like Zeb Knutson. And we have won a lot of games. You win national championships with the Brock Boeser, Nick Schmaltz, Henrik Borgstrom, Will Butcher, Mark Jankowski type guys added into a solid core of guys like Zeb Knutson. And those Boeser, et. al. guys aren't coming to the WCHA. This is the 5th year of realignment. There have been zero WCHA teams in the Frozen Four in that time frame. You think that's just bad luck?
I've had a lot of fun attending Mav games. We've had a ton of wins. Maybe that's enough. But if people think we just need a couple of good breaks and we can win the national championship playing out of the WCHA, they're kidding themselves.

The biggest reason there is that there is nearly untapped market in Mankato. We are either the 2nd or 3rd biggest school in the state depending on the year and it's located in a market (as we pointed out) that is almost untapped. There are a ton of alumni in the Twin Cities and being able to find one more way to pull in fans from that market (however small it may be) is a draw. It also gives the conference as a whole one more additional fallback if/when UND falters. No, we are NOT going to make up for the UND fan base as a whole, but any little bit helps when it comes to attendance at the conference tourney.

There is also that travel issue. The trip to Kato is easy for everyone (except for MAYBE WMU and Miami). A flight into MSP with a 80 minute bus ride classifies as easy and relatively cheap.

As for recruiting, any time a league can get one more trip into the state of Minnesota is a good thing. Again, a 80 minute trip from the Twin Cities is simple. No, it's not a NEW geographic location, but it does give one more trip into arguably the best geographic area in the country.

No there isn't one silver bullet, but if you start adding all of them up, maybe it makes sense. IF, and that's a big if, the NCHC decides it makes sense to expand, MSU is a mutually beneficial dance partner.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me and that's fine. Again, though, it's not just a school acting irrationally and without thought.

I agree with you two. If the Nacho wanted to focus on a geographic location, they would add Kato. It is a great fit for upper mid-west teams. Unfortunately, it appears they aren't looking for that.

I will disagree on an untapped fan base part. They are a stubborn people who like what they like and don't want to try something new. They are some of the nicest people you will meet, but hockey isn't there thing. It is the same problem the NHL has.

As for the recruiting part. I agree with you that it is better to get top end players for deep runs. Tech suffers from the same thing. Why do you think we are 0-3 in our recent run? You guys being in the Nacho isn't going to change that. You might get a slightly higher caliber player and maybe pop one top 20 recruit here or there, but is ending up like a WMU, Miami, or CC worth it? Most of us would say no that is why we are trying to get you to realize the nWCHA isn't as bad as you think.

Just a thought, when Tech was in the oWCHA, we would burn two of our NC games to play NMU to keep that rivalry going. I don't know if MSU has contacted the WCHA about cutting the number of conference games to pick up series with SCSU and UMD. Maybe setting up a weekend tournament like Tech has with the GLI or Boston has with the Beanpot. I know you had a thing with the Gophers and everyone pulled out. Maybe it is time for MSU to lead that charge?

[aparch]

ASU, if they get regulated to the NCHC I could see ...MTU getting looked at to even things up. If they even wanted to.

Did you miss the part where the NCHC was formed because they didn't want to donate league championship money to MTU on the regular OR make flights/bus trips into Houghton anymore?

[John J. MacInnes]

Maybe setting up a weekend tournament like Tech has with the GLI or Boston has with the Beanpot. I know you had a thing with the Gophers and everyone pulled out. Maybe it is time for MSU to lead that charge?

They already tried that with the North Star Cup. It failed miserably.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

Mankato in Nacho is like Missouri in SEC. How is that working for Missouri?

[Iwearpurple]

Re: WCHA Season Thread 2017-18: In Which We Try For Two Bids

I agree with you two. If the Nacho wanted to focus on a geographic location, they would add Kato. It is a great fit for upper mid-west teams. Unfortunately, it appears they aren't looking for that.

I will disagree on an untapped fan base part. They are a stubborn people who like what they like and don't want to try something new. They are some of the nicest people you will meet, but hockey isn't there thing. It is the same problem the NHL has.

As for the recruiting part. I agree with you that it is better to get top end players for deep runs. Tech suffers from the same thing. Why do you think we are 0-3 in our recent run? You guys being in the Nacho isn't going to change that. You might get a slightly higher caliber player and maybe pop one top 20 recruit here or there, but is ending up like a WMU, Miami, or CC worth it? Most of us would say no that is why we are trying to get you to realize the nWCHA isn't as bad as you think.

Just a thought, when Tech was in the oWCHA, we would burn two of our NC games to play NMU to keep that rivalry going. I don't know if MSU has contacted the WCHA about cutting the number of conference games to pick up series with SCSU and UMD. Maybe setting up a weekend tournament like Tech has with the GLI or Boston has with the Beanpot. I know you had a thing with the Gophers and everyone pulled out. Maybe it is time for MSU to lead that charge?

We did play both SCSU and UMD this year, splitting with each.

[purpleinnebraska]

I agree with you two. If the Nacho wanted to focus on a geographic location, they would add Kato. It is a great fit for upper mid-west teams. Unfortunately, it appears they aren't looking for that.

I will disagree on an untapped fan base part. They are a stubborn people who like what they like and don't want to try something new. They are some of the nicest people you will meet, but hockey isn't there thing. It is the same problem the NHL has.

As for the recruiting part. I agree with you that it is better to get top end players for deep runs. Tech suffers from the same thing. Why do you think we are 0-3 in our recent run? You guys being in the Nacho isn't going to change that. You might get a slightly higher caliber player and maybe pop one top 20 recruit here or there, but is ending up like a WMU, Miami, or CC worth it? Most of us would say no that is why we are trying to get you to realize the nWCHA isn't as bad as you think.

Just a thought, when Tech was in the oWCHA, we would burn two of our NC games to play NMU to keep that rivalry going. I don't know if MSU has contacted the WCHA about cutting the number of conference games to pick up series with SCSU and UMD. Maybe setting up a weekend tournament like Tech has with the GLI or Boston has with the Beanpot. I know you had a thing with the Gophers and everyone pulled out. Maybe it is time for MSU to lead that charge?

For non-con games, I think the 28 game schedule makes everything difficult. A bye week or two is important during the season. I don’t have deep feelings on this, but I do think a 24 game conference slate might be better

[Shirtless Guy]

For non-con games, I think the 28 game schedule makes everything difficult. A bye week or two is important during the season. I don’t have deep feelings on this, but I do think a 24 game conference slate might be better

The problem with that is WCHA teams already struggle to get balanced NC schedules

[Squarebanks]

Mankato in Nacho is like Missouri in SEC. How is that working for Missouri?

$40 million annual payout from SEC Network revenues. They’re doing just fine.

All SEC member institutions are treated on equal footing within the conference, and you don’t see Alabama trying to jettison Mississippi State. Pretty much the direct opposite of the NCHC.

[davyd83]

For non-con games, I think the 28 game schedule makes everything difficult. A bye week or two is important during the season. I don’t have deep feelings on this, but I do think a 24 game conference slate might be better

A 24 game schedule forces WCHA teams to suck up to the NCHC & Big 10 and take more 2-for-1 NC series.