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Nice Planet 14: You People Make Me Sick

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  • Originally posted by WisconsinWildcard View Post
    I can tell from your comments that you know very little about this case and how things work in healthcare, or medical ethics for that matter. This child would have died a natural death ages ago. Do you know anything about providing nutrition to a patient who cannot swallow? Or is on a ventilator? Or how about is unable to absorb food. What about the risks with these procedures? Do you know how long you can safely keep an NG tube in? How about TPN?

    Do you have access to his medical records and therefore are somewhat informed of his medical situation?

    How many of these situations have you personally been involved in? This week I have been involved in the care on 2 people under the age of 18 after catastrophic neurological injuries and I can tell you, these situations are never taken lightly.

    And no, I don't expect you to answer any of these questions because it is much easier being ignorant...calling these people murderers.
    He's still living despite the doctors assertions that he would die within hours. The doctors want to withhold nutrition to starve Alfie to death.

    Why can't the parents seek alternative care? Is the NHS that powerful that it can stifle a parents' last chances to keep their child alive?

    Why not call them murderers? Got another name for someone who goes against the parents' wishes to keep their son alive?

    It is ironic that the state gives the mother the absolute right to terminate the child's life before birth but prohibits the same mother from trying to keep her child alive after he is born.

    We are on opposite sides. It appears to me that you believe the State has the absolute power of life and death over us. I refuse to accept that premise. And, if this is what single payer is going to bring to the USA, I want no part of it - and neither should you.
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    • Originally posted by joecct View Post
      It is ironic that the state gives the mother the absolute right to terminate the child's life before birth but prohibits the same mother from trying to keep her child alive after he is born.
      Still less ironic than the pro life party treating 50% of the population as mere incubators and then not giving a crap about babies once they're out of the womb.

      Oh, and let's not forget that you and your party are pro death penalty, too.

      So spare me your sanctimonious crap given the hypocrisy of the pro life movement.

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      • Re: Nice Planet 14: You People Make Me Sick

        Originally posted by joecct View Post
        He's still living despite the doctors assertions that he would die within hours. The doctors want to withhold nutrition to starve Alfie to death.

        Why can't the parents seek alternative care? Is the NHS that powerful that it can stifle a parents' last chances to keep their child alive?

        Why not call them murderers? Got another name for someone who goes against the parents' wishes to keep their son alive?

        It is ironic that the state gives the mother the absolute right to terminate the child's life before birth but prohibits the same mother from trying to keep her child alive after he is born.

        We are on opposite sides. It appears to me that you believe the State has the absolute power of life and death over us. I refuse to accept that premise. And, if this is what single payer is going to bring to the USA, I want no part of it - and neither should you.
        I would be all for the parents being able to continue with the child's healthcare if the parents pay 100% of the costs or find another private funding source that is in noway tied to insurance providers.
        "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

        "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

        "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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        • Re: Nice Planet 14: You People Make Me Sick

          Originally posted by joecct View Post
          He's still living despite the doctors assertions that he would die within hours. The doctors want to withhold nutrition to starve Alfie to death.

          Why can't the parents seek alternative care? Is the NHS that powerful that it can stifle a parents' last chances to keep their child alive?

          Why not call them murderers? Got another name for someone who goes against the parents' wishes to keep their son alive?

          It is ironic that the state gives the mother the absolute right to terminate the child's life before birth but prohibits the same mother from trying to keep her child alive after he is born.

          We are on opposite sides. It appears to me that you believe the State has the absolute power of life and death over us. I refuse to accept that premise. And, if this is what single payer is going to bring to the USA, I want no part of it - and neither should you.
          Is it that you do not believe allowing this child to die is in his best interests or that you do not think medical providers should be allowed to influence that call (subject to judicial review) from a medical science point of view?

          Do you believe parents always act in their children's best interests? When they are unable to, should they be permitted to control the decision anyway?

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          • Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
            I would be all for the parents being able to continue with the child's healthcare if the parents pay 100% of the costs or find another private funding source that is in noway tied to insurance providers.
            I could maybe get on board with that.
            I’ve been studying details about how much money is spent at the end of someone’s life and it’s quite astonishing.

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            • Re: Nice Planet 14: You People Make Me Sick

              If the Brits don't want to try why aren't they allowing someone else to try?
              We (science) might learn something of value in even if the expect outcome happens.

              FAIL == First Attempt In Learning
              The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

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              • Re: Nice Planet 14: You People Make Me Sick

                Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
                I could maybe get on board with that.
                I’ve been studying details about how much money is spent at the end of someone’s life and it’s quite astonishing.
                I'd be on board. Frankly, if I'm in that situation, where I'm terminal, let me die in peace and without pain. Don't make me live in suffering.
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                • Re: Nice Planet 14: You People Make Me Sick

                  If the child is now an Italian citizen, why aren't the Brits happy to let him leave and be the burden on the Italian health system?
                  The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

                  North Dakota Hockey:

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                  • Re: Nice Planet 14: You People Make Me Sick

                    Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
                    I could maybe get on board with that.
                    I’ve been studying details about how much money is spent at the end of someone’s life and it’s quite astonishing.
                    My dad has quoted the figure to me a few times. Astonishing is a great word for it. It’s a very large percent of our entire life’s cumulative expenses.
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                    • Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                      My dad has quoted the figure to me a few times. Astonishing is a great word for it. It’s a very large percent of our entire life’s cumulative expenses.
                      Isn't something like 98% of health expenses spent in the first 3 and last 3 months of our collective lives?
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                      • Re: Nice Planet 14: You People Make Me Sick

                        Originally posted by mookie1995 View Post
                        Isn't something like 98% of health expenses spent in the first 3 and last 3 months of our collective lives?
                        Well, you would kinda assume that the biggest spike in health care costs is going to be for the thing that kills you. I'd like to see the crosstabs, in other words.
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                        • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                          Well, you would kinda assume that the biggest spike in health care costs is going to be for the thing that kills you. I'd like to see the crosstabs, in other words.
                          A lot of the time a ton of money is spent to barely prolog your life. That’s what I think is difficult. That’s why a hip transplant for a 84 year old isn’t going to be prioritized by the nhs.

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                          • Re: Nice Planet 14: You People Make Me Sick

                            Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
                            If the child is now an Italian citizen, why aren't the Brits happy to let him leave and be the burden on the Italian health system?
                            Because until the UK finalizes its exit form the EU, it's still paying for Italy's profligate spending.
                            "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                            "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                            "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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                            • Re: Nice Planet 14: You People Make Me Sick

                              Originally posted by joecct View Post
                              He's still living despite the doctors assertions that he would die within hours. The doctors want to withhold nutrition to starve Alfie to death.
                              Show me where a doctor who is primarily involved in his care said on record that he will certainly die within hours. My team unfortunately is often in the position of withdrawing care on a patient. I have never met someone who would assert when a patient will die and I remain highly skeptical someone said that. They may have said "It might be hours" but not "He will die within hours."

                              Originally posted by joecct View Post
                              Why can't the parents seek alternative care? Is the NHS that powerful that it can stifle a parents' last chances to keep their child alive?
                              Why not call them murderers? Got another name for someone who goes against the parents' wishes to keep their son alive?
                              Parents do not own their children. They do not have an absolute right to prolong suffering. Do you know what it is like to be on a ventilator? Or have the inevitable complications? I have not examined the patient nor have access to their records so I cannot comment on this particular case. But neither can you. I am an expert in this area any there is no way that one can comment intelligently in any way unless they know all the details. Unless I have reviewed his chart, directly viewed his imaging and performed my own exam, I would not comment on specifics and any doctor that would is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

                              People do not have the absolute right to request any treatment they want. This has a long established ethical framework.
                              In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.

                              Originally posted by burd
                              I look at some people and I just know they do it doggy style. No way they're getting close to my kids.

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                              • Re: Nice Planet 14: You People Make Me Sick

                                Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
                                If the Brits don't want to try why aren't they allowing someone else to try?
                                We (science) might learn something of value in even if the expect outcome happens.

                                FAIL == First Attempt In Learning
                                Yes experimenting on children where the risks are likely much greater than benefits. Add a dash of selling likely false hope to devastated parents and you have a nice ethical framework
                                In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.

                                Originally posted by burd
                                I look at some people and I just know they do it doggy style. No way they're getting close to my kids.

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