2020 Democratic Challengers

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Dr mrs kep’s Gucci and Louis Vuitton bags cost how much to make of that $1,950 kep paid?

LOL. Dr. Mrs. is much smarter than I. Neither of us owns anything designer, obviously.

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Of course none of this will happen in our lifetimes. The premise is what happens once nobody works anymore, not what to run on in 2018. The point is the whole cluster of ideas of what is economically feasible and what is morally desirable will be as unrecognizable to us as our time would be to somebody from 1018 AD.

So then why even discuss it in the current term? That would be like discussing colonizing Mars during the First Crusades.

See that is the problem, this isnt just some academic discussion, there are people discussing the idea now as a way for society to survive as jobs disappear. Hell Maize brought it up in this thread which is about the Presidential Election in 3 years. We arent talking about some time in the distant future it is being brought up now. It wont work.

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

So then why even discuss it in the current term? That would be like discussing colonizing Mars during the First Crusades.

See that is the problem, this isnt just some academic discussion, there are people discussing the idea now as a way for society to survive as jobs disappear. It wont work.

It is an intellectual discussion, it's not a campaign discussion. I understand most people are limited to current events, but we don't have to be.

As far as the concept of UBI, I think it's a good thing for the left spectrum to start talking about now. Get people used to it and drag the Overton window. It won't become policy here for decades, but ideas are how we change what is allowed to be discussed in the mainstream without being hooted down. Look at how successful the far right was in pushing the MSM way, way to the right. If they had talked about privatizing SS in the 70s they would have been shot into the sun, but they created think tanks and talking points and gradually boiled the frog to where in the early 00's they nearly got away with it.

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

That puts us at 4 trillion or so. Again, expensive, but a far cry from 13 trillion. It's doable with political will.

.

No, its not. Its only doable in a police state where you force people to hand over their goods. If the gubmint only collects about 3T in tax revenue now, and that includes social security which you want to leave out of the UBI scheme, you're saying its only a lack of political will preventing the country from doubling taxes on everybody and everything and then some in order to raise an extra 4T bucks? Good lord even Kepler only wants to screw rich people, not every single person drawing breath in the country.

Lastly there's no way "the left" should start having this conversation unless they want to fit every stereotype of being unrealistic loons who want to pay people not to work. Universal college tuition and single payer for those without coverage through work are far more realistic and achievable goals.

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

No, its not. Its only doable in a police state where you force people to hand over their goods. If the gubmint only collects about 3T in tax revenue now, and that includes social security which you want to leave out of the UBI scheme, you're saying its only a lack of political will preventing the country from doubling taxes on everybody and everything and then some in order to raise an extra 4T bucks? Good lord even Kepler only wants to screw rich people, not every single person drawing breath in the country.

Lastly there's no way "the left" should start having this conversation unless they want to fit every stereotype of being unrealistic loons who want to pay people not to work. Universal college tuition and single payer for those without coverage through work are far more realistic and achievable goals.

We have to play the terracing game. Our far left loons, like me, stand on the highest terrace and talk about UBI and disbanding the army and rescinding male suffrage. That leaves you and our politicians down on the lower terrace being moderate in only asking for, say, a 70% top marginal taxation on the rich.

We've seen what happens if we don't have an aspirational left. Even a tiny increase in minimum wages gets called TEH COMMUINISM!!!1!!1 and that slander sticks, because lofos need a measuring stick right there in front of their eyes at all times or they swallow what the right and the corporate media are peddling.

You need me on that wall, Rover. You want me on that wall, or you'll never get even the tiny incremental changes you want. We tried a Democratic party without a "lunatic left" for 40 years, and it got us to the blighted fascistic hellscape we live in today.

[trixR4kids]

That leaves you and our politicians down on the lower terrace being moderate in only asking for, say, a 70% top marginal taxation on the rich.

Lol this is Rover we’re talking about right?

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

Lol this is Rover we’re talking about right?

Look, I know he's a Goldman whore, but baby steps. We need a complete sweep before he and his go to the wall.

[mookie1995]

Look, I know he's a Goldman whore, but baby steps. We need a complete sweep before he and his go to the wall.

Rover is that comfortable 1% “do as I say, not as I do” crowd who celebrated the CUT like Pocahontas and are happy to just talk the talk

THEY have worked hard to earn their keep

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

We've seen what happens if we don't have an aspirational left. Even a tiny increase in minimum wages gets called TEH COMMUINISM!!!1!!1 and that slander sticks, because lofos need a measuring stick right there in front of their eyes at all times or they swallow what the right and the corporate media are peddling.

You need me on that wall, Rover. You want me on that wall, or you'll never get even the tiny incremental changes you want. We tried a Democratic party without a "lunatic left" for 40 years, and it got us to the blighted fascistic hellscape we live in today.

He’s not wrong, Rover

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

He’s not wrong, Rover

He's delusional. Dems struggle with a more diverse coalition than Republicans, who's base is fairly simple. Old white baby boomers who want to be told the world revolves around them. Yes, they get little in the way of actual benefits from GOP policies but who cares if your party is finding a new scapegoat every week to represent a threat to the lily white country they remember from some mythical time in their youth.

Where Kep devolves into Sanders style lunacy is in appealing to the non angry old white people vote. For example, educated voters are more and more turning to the Dems. Educated voters also tend to make more money than average. In fact, the highest income and most educated states (CA, NY, MA, MD, etc) tend to vote overwhelmingly Democratic. Start campaigning on a platform that everybody making 200K a year (not a ton of money if you live in these high cost states) deserves a 100% tax hike and they won't vote for you, no matter what your long term strategy is.

its sorta like his everybody in the financial industry belongs in jail mantra. A lot of people who had nothing to do with bad loans or uncovered hedges (think middle managers, accountants, etc) lost their jobs through no fault of their own. Kep probably thinks that's funny but that they then should have been serving time. Problem is not only are these people a huge part of Democratic party support, but they're also on the front lines of dispelling ridiculous GOP talking points about how tax cuts for the 1% and corps trickle down to everyone else.

So, the trick isn't to counter absurd neo-conartist policies with loony lefty ones. The trick is for Dems to start going for the jugular again, something they stopped doing over the last 40 years. Paul Ryan's reputation should be on the same level as his mentor, child molesting pervert GOP House Speaker Dennis Hastert thanks to his obsession with starving people in order to pay for tax cuts for billionaires. Dems by and large follow the media' lead in giving him a pass, which is idiotic. The entire Republican party needs to be subject to a constant scorched earth campaign, not once every 4 years in 25 states that make up enough electoral votes to win the White House based on the policies they've actually voted for. Instead Dems are too busy trying to play nice with people who they think are reasonable but who long ago sold out. That includes Hatch, McCain, AND Susan Collins.

EDIT: to mookie's point yes I will take the extra $$$ from these tax cuts and LMAO. I was pretty open about this all year. Its not me who's going to be paying the price for this tax theft. I will benefit, and laugh in the face of the people who are getting their healthcare and benefits slashed to pay to line my pockets. I guess they shouldn't have 1) voted for Trump, 2) voted 3rd party, or 3) stayed home. You get what you vote for. Thanks for the extra cash people!

[Handyman]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

I hate to say it but Rover is closer to being right than Kepler is.

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

What role should the 'aspirational left' play in the party? My opinion is limited.

Democrats are the adults and need to play that role. Two reasons for that 1) most liberals are primarily interested in moderation - i.e., note that CNN and even MSNBC focuses on facts rather than Fox hyperbole 2) winning is about the middle and therefore moderation - let's win the battle for the tent.

One could say that the above strategy is not working with govt control in the hands of the GOP. I'd disagree and we are winning the battle for the tent. In 2016, 54% of Americans voted for a senate democrat vs. only 42% for a senate republican and a nearly even vote total for House democrats and republicans resulted in a nearly 50 seat majority for the GOP. Including Hillary winning the popular vote...democrats shouldn't be blowing up its appeal to Americans, because its winning that battle. The problem is that its not translating to representation.

Democrats need to stay the course, continue to put moderate and only moderate pressure on the GOP, and focus on fixing electoral bias and special interest influences...which are the real and primary challenges facing both democrats and the American populous. We are the moderate adults.

[jericho]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

So alot of people seem to think that Oprah's acceptance speech as the Golden Globes last night was a stump speech to launch her campaign.....

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

I’m not sure I want her negotiating with North Korea, Russia, or Iran. She’s be better than the doofus we have now, but come on. Can’t we get someone who understands and knows geopolitical issues?

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

I’m not sure I want her negotiating with North Korea, Russia, or Iran. She’s be better than the doofus we have now, but come on. Can’t we get someone who understands and knows geopolitical issues?

No. Not when our voting patterns are strictly Charisma based.