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  • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

    So I was taking a political survey today and got one asking my thoughts on a bunch of different campaign slogans for a potential 2020 presidential candidate running on the platform of a $1K/month Universal Basic Income. I'm not sure how far that would get, but certainly think it could be an interesting wild card in the next primary.
    Originally posted by dicaslover
    Yep, you got it. I heart Maize.

    Originally posted by Kristin
    Maybe I'm missing something but you just asked me which MSU I go to and then you knew the theme of my homecoming, how do you know one and not the other?

    Western College Hockey Blog

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    • Originally posted by MaizeRage View Post
      So I was taking a political survey today and got one asking my thoughts on a bunch of different campaign slogans for a potential 2020 presidential candidate running on the platform of a $1K/month Universal Basic Income. I'm not sure how far that would get, but certainly think it could be an interesting wild card in the next primary.
      Every citizen gets a grand a month stipend?

      Would that then be used to pay as you wish? Medical coverage? Or iPhones? Tuition?
      a legend and an out of work bum look a lot alike, daddy.

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      • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
        Oh mook, she'd win pretty easily.

        She'd get even more votes, with all the Bernie voters coming back. She might even get a handful of people who have gone all the way over from Dump. But the big difference is Dump has lost a ton of "lesser of two evils" support. His base would still vote for him. But those people who voted against Hillary because they hated Dump at 7 but they hated Hillary at 11? A lot of them now hate Dump at 73.

        Dump won in 2016 because Hillary was so distrusted by the people who weren't her direct supporters.

        Dump is the new Hillary.
        Love to remind kep of the definition of insanity

        Doing the same thing over and over and exp3cting a different result
        a legend and an out of work bum look a lot alike, daddy.

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        • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

          Originally posted by mookie1995 View Post
          Love to remind kep of the definition of insanity

          Doing the same thing over and over and exp3cting a different result
          There is that, of course, though I would say this is actually not the same thing. Dump v Hillary wasn't Dump v Hillary, it was a meme battle. Those memes have changed, now. When Dump attacks "Crooked Hillary" he's just reminding everyone of his actual crimes. Plus, the attack on the Insider doesn't work anymore -- Dump is the Insider, now. To be fair, he might get away with it with a Dem Congress since most people have a 5 second attention span, so perhaps if we sweep in 2018 you have a point.

          Obviously I don't want her anywhere near the nomination in 2020. That would be too depressing for words. I don't want any repeats -- I want a complete purge of every public face in the party over 60 except Warren who I want floating in ethereal divine guidance over the landscape like a benign, maternal Virgin Mary Judi Dench. But I'm just sayin she'd win big.

          A third of America hates Dump on principle. A third has Flag's unquestioning, unthinking obedience to der Reichsführer. The middle third is who matters. In 2016 half of them took a flier on Dump because they were mad as hell and they weren't gonna take it anymore. How many of them will re-up?
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          • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

            Originally posted by mookie1995 View Post
            Every citizen gets a grand a month stipend?

            Would that then be used to pay as you wish? Medical coverage? Or iPhones? Tuition?
            That's the idea.
            Originally posted by dicaslover
            Yep, you got it. I heart Maize.

            Originally posted by Kristin
            Maybe I'm missing something but you just asked me which MSU I go to and then you knew the theme of my homecoming, how do you know one and not the other?

            Western College Hockey Blog

            Comment


            • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

              Universal basic income is a very good idea. Food, clothing and shelter (along with medicine and education) should also be rights.

              We can do these things as humans are freed from most types of work by robotics and AI, but we will have to break the habit of holding health, safety, and happiness hostage. It's a level of slavery we were all brought up to regard as natural. We have to break that idea. And obviously the class that has used that whip to abuse and exploit people for millenia won't give it up without a fight.

              We are reaching another inflection point in human history and as in the past all our old ways of thinking are going to become obsolete. There will be completely new economic and political systems and religions. We on this side of the voyage literally have no idea what's going to make sense on the other shore. It would have been nice to have been born late enough to see it, but then again we could have been born to a life dragging stones to make the pyramids so we got off lightly.
              Last edited by Kepler; 01-05-2018, 10:26 AM.
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              • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                UBI is probably the second dumbest economic policy proposal I've ever heard of. It's the sort of airheaded, Bern-out brand of socialism that is mainly popular with broke college students. Republicans love to scare their base by saying mass welfare is the goal for ALL Democrats, and that it's proof they want to bankrupt the US like Greece, and then cast everyone into the totalitarian abyss like North Korea, etc.

                The only thing dumber is the idea of the Laffer Curve and the subsequent conclusion & policy that all tax cuts benefit everyone equally.

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                • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                  Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                  UBI is probably the second dumbest economic policy proposal I've ever heard of. It's the sort of airheaded, Bern-out brand of socialism that is mainly popular with broke college students. Republicans love to scare their base by saying mass welfare is the goal for ALL Democrats, and that it's proof they want to bankrupt the US like Greece, and then cast everyone into the totalitarian abyss like North Korea, etc.
                  That is all political stuff and it only holds true while we're all still back here in the Old World. The idea that "thou must work for one's bread" is true the way it used to be true that the nation that won a war killed all the men and boys and raped all the women. That was "the way the world is" once because it had to be: the carrying capacity of that primitive technology meant that men on the losing side were superfluous and women were primarily valuable as baby machines. The User Manual for that world is the Old Testament -- the religion that today's orcs believe in was based on it and viewed it approvingly.

                  But we used our ape brains and figured out how to extend our powers through technology, and we left that "truth" behind.

                  Welp, we're using them again and our tech is getting good enough that we will soon be escaping the requirement that humanity has to labor to survive. We already have this around the edges: the wealthy play at working but still thrive, and in developed countries even people who cannot or will not work aren't literally starved to death. Obviously everyone alive now still feels in their bones the need for people to work, because that reflects the culture that socialized us. We aren't going to fit in the new world and it's a blessing that we'll be dead long before it occurs. The transition itself will take centuries and be uneven. Parts of the globe today still haven't mentally escaped the Iron Age.

                  To say it's a bad idea because it will provoke a reaction from the orcs is like saying manumission was a bad idea because it made the slave owners angry. No sh-t. That's how real revolutions -- not of trivial politics but of the mind -- happen. They are not fun.
                  Last edited by Kepler; 01-05-2018, 11:05 AM.
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                  • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                    Yeah UBI is rather awful. How exactly are we going to pay for all that? The math has never added up.
                    "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
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                    • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                      Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                      Yeah UBI is rather awful. How exactly are we going to pay for all that? The math has never added up.
                      if it doesn't work, what is the alternative? AI and automation are going to remove more and more people from the workforce.
                      someday trucks, airplanes, and even forklifts will drive themselves, structures will be 3D printed, a robot will cook your Big Mac, deliver your mail. The numbers of unemployed will explode.

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                      • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                        Originally posted by BassAle View Post
                        if it doesn't work, what is the alternative?
                        Figure 1 out of 50 right now is human. 0.02 x 7.8 billion = 156 million global population.

                        156 million artists, writers, scientists, dancers, theorists, mathematicians, explorers, musicians, doctors, philosophers, poets, historians, singers, care givers, and just plain hedonists.

                        Sounds like a really good world.
                        Last edited by Kepler; 01-05-2018, 12:09 PM.
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                        • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                          Originally posted by BassAle View Post
                          if it doesn't work, what is the alternative? AI and automation are going to remove more and more people from the workforce.
                          someday trucks, airplanes, and even forklifts will drive themselves, structures will be 3D printed, a robot will cook your Big Mac, deliver your mail. The numbers of unemployed will explode.
                          I dont know but again how do you plan to have enough money to pay everyone a living wage? We cant tax enough to make it feasible for the government to do it.

                          Lets say there are 250 million work eligible people in the country. You would need to pay each of them since it is universal. Lets say, just for funsies that everyone is to make 52k a year. (well below what will be needed in many places but go with it) That is what $13 trillion dollars a year in UBI? Where the heck is that coming from? You wont be able to tax the citizens enough and we know the rich and corporations will never cover that kind of tax burden ON TOP of the other taxes they will have to pay. Where is the country going to get that kind of money?

                          Hell lets say you only have to pay half of them (the rest are employed) that is still $6.5 trillion. Hell even half that it is still over $3 trillion per year. There is no chance that is possible and as cost of living rises it will only get worse.

                          If we werent a free market capitalist society you could implement this stuff and make it work...but we are way too far gone for anything like this to happen. It makes a great soundbyte and hypothetical in classrooms but we would crater hard and fast. We are way better off just making income go farther by paying for the essentials like college and health care.
                          "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                          -aparch

                          "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                          -INCH

                          Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                          -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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                          • Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                            I dont know but again how do you plan to have enough money to pay everyone a living wage? We cant tax enough to make it feasible for the government to do it.

                            Lets say there are 250 million work eligible people in the country. You would need to pay each of them since it is universal. Lets say, just for funsies that everyone is to make 52k a year. (well below what will be needed in many places but go with it) That is what $13 trillion dollars a year in UBI? Where the heck is that coming from? You wont be able to tax the citizens enough and we know the rich and corporations will never cover that kind of tax burden ON TOP of the other taxes they will have to pay. Where is the country going to get that kind of money?

                            Hell lets say you only have to pay half of them (the rest are employed) that is still $6.5 trillion. Hell even half that it is still over $3 trillion per year. There is no chance that is possible and as cost of living rises it will only get worse.

                            If we werent a free market capitalist society you could implement this stuff and make it work...but we are way too far gone for anything like this to happen. It makes a great soundbyte and hypothetical in classrooms but we would crater hard and fast. We are way better off just making income go farther by paying for the essentials like college and health care.
                            How much gets transferred via social security right now? Because UBI is essentially an extension of that to all Americans, so you don't need to double count. Likewise current welfare programs would, in theory, get rolled into it as well. Same with the EITC, child tax credits, etc.

                            Expensive, sure, but not as much as you'd think.

                            It's like the canard that universal healthcare will cost trillions every year. Never mind that we already spend trillions every year. Since universal health care would replace much of that spending, it wouldn't actually cost any given individual much extra. You'd just be paying the government instead of BCBS or Aetna or whoever.

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                            • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                              Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                              I dont know but again how do you plan to have enough money to pay everyone a living wage?
                              It happens when the cost of food, clothing, energy, and housing becomes essentially free, and that happens when there is no longer a labor element in production.

                              Eventually the only contributors to cost will be human labor by workers and the hoarding of property surplus by owners. When we make the first one disappear by our technology, the entire moral underpinning of the second one will no longer exist, and people will no longer stand for it. The wealthy will no longer "deserve" any more than anyone else when value is being generated by computer programs and robots, and they just happen to accidentally "own" the programs or the robots. This is already true of finance, but people's minds haven't caught up with it yet. It used to make sense that someone deserved to be rich while someone else was starving to death, if they had cleared and plowed and harvested a field, or invented the equipment that better did those jobs. But we are already a long, long way from that kind of "deserving," which is why the 1% so desperately and fraudulently analogizes their privilege back to people who do actual work.

                              Some day, nobody will do actual work for 99% of the tasks that support our needs. Right now in fact that number is probably already above 50%. At some tipping point people will realize that in a world where everyone is doing nothing but what is enjoyable to them, whether that is art for the very smartest, or science for the middling smart, or drinking and screwing for the dummies, then everyone is equally entitled to the goods generated by technology. That's the inevitable future of technological progress. Wealth is an intermediary stage of economics, like monarchy was in politics.
                              Last edited by Kepler; 01-05-2018, 03:24 PM.
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                              • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                                Gotta agree with Handy and Fade here. Universal Income is an idea that came out of a Bernie Sanders supporters circle jerk, and I'm pretty sure hallucinogenic drugs were involved.

                                First, as Handy points out, the math doesn't work. There's no mechanism for raising the tax revenue that this would require. Even if you doubled everybody's taxes, from corporations to individuals, that gets you what? maybe 6T in revenue when you need $13T?

                                Even worse politically is everybody out here probably has a shiftless and lazy relative or in-law who hasn't worked a day in their life who will now be the beneficiary of this largesse, paid for by a quadrupling of the current tax rates. So while Kep envisions more poets and painters, more people will also see more stoners and burnouts doing nothing all day but getting paid for it! That's doom politically, unless the assumption is that those nice and fair minded Republicans would neeeeever launch a campaign like that, right. Right?

                                Rather have something like universal college tuition which is much more merit based.
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