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2020 Democratic Challengers

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  • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

    UBI has been talked about before anyone (outside of VT) knew who Bernie was so no... that's not accurate.

    As far as it being some type of priority or having a serious conversation about it, I think we're a ways off.

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    • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

      Originally posted by unofan View Post
      How much gets transferred via social security right now? Because UBI is essentially an extension of that to all Americans, so you don't need to double count. Likewise current welfare programs would, in theory, get rolled into it as well. Same with the EITC, child tax credits, etc.

      Expensive, sure, but not as much as you'd think.

      It's like the canard that universal healthcare will cost trillions every year. Never mind that we already spend trillions every year. Since universal health care would replace much of that spending, it wouldn't actually cost any given individual much extra. You'd just be paying the government instead of BCBS or Aetna or whoever.
      Social Security is paid for through taxes. Who are you going to tax to make this work? You are adding trillions to the budget with no added method of bringing in cash. It doesnt work that way especially if people arent working. Universal Health Care (something I support wholeheartedly) is much less expensive and can be paid for via taxes on people working.

      If you pay for UBI by taxing the people on UBI (really the only way to make it work) the law of diminishing returns will kill you every time. And you cant just tax the rich to high heaven to pay for it because they wont be able to handle it either.

      UBI is great in theory, but much like everything Bernie Sanders said (again someone I supported going back to 2012) you need more than just ideas you have to have a method in place to pay for it.
      "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
      -aparch

      "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
      -INCH

      Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
      -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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      • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

        Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
        UBI has been talked about before anyone (outside of VT) knew who Bernie was so no... that's not accurate.

        As far as it being some type of priority or having a serious conversation about it, I think we're a ways off.
        Unless you have a magic wand that generates free money, what kind of serious discussion is there to have? I agree with one of Kep's points, which is we shouldn't allow opposition from plutes and knucks' to get in the way of good ideas. This isn't one of them, and there's something to be said for not walking into a punch with your eyes closed and chin up.
        Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

        Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

        "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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        • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          It happens when the cost of food, clothing, energy, and housing becomes essentially free, and that happens when there is no longer a labor element in production.

          Eventually the only contributors to cost will be human labor by workers and the hoarding of property surplus by owners. When we make the first one disappear by our technology, the entire moral underpinning of the second one will no longer exist, and people will no longer stand for it. The wealthy will no longer "deserve" any more than anyone else when value is being generated by computer programs and robots, and they just happen to accidentally "own" the programs or the robots. This is already true of finance, but people's minds haven't caught up with it yet. It used to make sense that someone deserved to be rich while someone else was starving to death, if they had cleared and plowed and harvested a field, or invented the equipment that better did those jobs. But we are already a long, long way from that kind of "deserving," which is why the 1% so desperately and fraudulently analogizes their privilege back to people who do actual work.

          Some day, nobody will do actual work for 99% of the tasks that support our needs. Right now in fact that number is probably already above 50%. At some tipping point people will realize that in a world where everyone is doing nothing but what is enjoyable to them, whether that is art for the very smartest, or science for the middling smart, or drinking and screwing for the dummies, then everyone is equally entitled to the goods generated by technology. That's the inevitable future of technological progress. Wealth is an intermediary stage of economics, like monarchy was in politics.
          That is great if you are taking "Political Philosophy 301" but in the real world none of that is happening in America in any of our lifetimes unless the entire system collapses. You are completely out to lunch on this and you sound like the academics I know that still talk about how in theory Communism can and will work. Unless you can find a way to account for the greed of the average person (something that wont be quelched by UBI or any of your theories) you might as well just forget about it.

          And again, where is the trillions yearly going to come from? Do you really think you can tax the rich and corporations so high when they dont need American workers anymore? So tax the average person? They dont like paying what they pay now you think they are going to accept that meteoric rise it would take to offset between 3 and 12 trillion dollars annually? (and that will rise by the time this is even an option probably 3-5 times) And remember that is just to pay off the UBI that doesnt cover any of the other crap our Government already pays for. I mean sure...but before that I got a sweet *** bridge to sell you in San Francisco...I will give you an awesome deal pennies on the dollar!

          tl;dr: unless America gets rid of Capitalism and greed gets wiped from our minds UBI doesnt have a leg to stand on.
          "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
          -aparch

          "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
          -INCH

          Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
          -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

          Comment


          • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

            Originally posted by Rover View Post
            Unless you have a magic wand that generates free money, what kind of serious discussion is there to have? I agree with one of Kep's points, which is we shouldn't allow opposition from plutes and knucks' to get in the way of good ideas. This isn't one of them, and there's something to be said for not walking into a punch with your eyes closed and chin up.
            We can borrow/print money, though IDK if it's possible to get the amount needed for UBI.

            But with automation being a thing and productivity at an all time high I think at some point there's gonna need to be a conversation on how to handle that.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Handyman View Post
              Social Security is paid for through taxes. Who are you going to tax to make this work? You are adding trillions to the budget with no added method of bringing in cash. It doesnt work that way especially if people arent working. Universal Health Care (something I support wholeheartedly) is much less expensive and can be paid for via taxes on people working.

              If you pay for UBI by taxing the people on UBI (really the only way to make it work) the law of diminishing returns will kill you every time. And you cant just tax the rich to high heaven to pay for it because they wont be able to handle it either.

              UBI is great in theory, but much like everything Bernie Sanders said (again someone I supported going back to 2012) you need more than just ideas you have to have a method in place to pay for it.
              It's not 13 trillion. The poverty line is something like 25k. So start there. So that takes us down to 6 trillion. Then subtract out social security (because you won't get both UBI and social security since they serve the same purpose). That takes another trillion off. Subtract out other welfare programs that are made extraneous, and that's another.5 trillion (excluding Medicaid). Assume universal healthcare passes first and you could save another half trillion by no longer needing Medicaid.

              That puts us at 4 trillion or so. Again, expensive, but a far cry from 13 trillion. It's doable with political will.

              With UBI, you also can tax all other non UBI from dollar one, without personal exemptions and the like. I don't know how much that would raise immediately, but presumably a substantial sum.
              Last edited by unofan; 01-05-2018, 04:34 PM.

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              • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                You dont do UBI at the poverty level. Come on man...
                "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                -aparch

                "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                -INCH

                Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                  You dont do UBI at the poverty level. Come on man...
                  UBI isn't meant to give everyone a middle class lifestyle, it's meant to keep everyone from starving or freezing to death. That's absolutely where you start.

                  It's in the name: universal BASIC income.

                  Comment


                  • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                    Right but if people legitimately can't find work to support themselves, hence the need for UBI, having a country where everyone who can't find a job is in poverty isn't really an acceptable answer especially if you're cutting all the other programs as well.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Rover View Post
                      Even worse politically is everybody out here probably has a shiftless and lazy relative or in-law who hasn't worked a day in their life who will now be the beneficiary of this largesse, paid for by a quadrupling of the current tax rates. So while Kep envisions more poets and painters, more people will also see more stoners and burnouts doing nothing all day but getting paid for it!..
                      Your stoner is kep’s poet
                      a legend and an out of work bum look a lot alike, daddy.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by unofan View Post
                        UBI isn't meant to give everyone a middle class lifestyle, it's meant to keep everyone from starving or freezing to death. That's absolutely where you start.

                        It's in the name: universal BASIC income.
                        So welfare

                        That’s already here
                        a legend and an out of work bum look a lot alike, daddy.

                        Comment


                        • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                          Originally posted by unofan View Post
                          UBI isn't meant to give everyone a middle class lifestyle, it's meant to keep everyone from starving or freezing to death. That's absolutely where you start.

                          It's in the name: universal BASIC income.
                          If they cant get jobs how can they live on 25k? It is a nonstarter. You might as well just put everyone on welfare with food stamps.

                          UBI is supposed to replace income as jobs disappear. If UBI just puts people at the poverty line people end up worse off so what is the point?
                          "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                          -aparch

                          "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                          -INCH

                          Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                          -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

                          Comment


                          • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                            Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                            If they cant get jobs how can they live on 25k? It is a nonstarter. You might as well just put everyone on welfare with food stamps.

                            UBI is supposed to replace income as jobs disappear. If UBI just puts people at the poverty line people end up worse off so what is the point?
                            Exactly.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              It happens when the cost of food, clothing, energy, and housing becomes essentially free, and that happens when there is no longer a labor element in production....
                              Labor is already dirty cheap.
                              Your polo shirt is made 3rd world for pennies and costs $100
                              Dr mrs kep’s Gucci and Louis Vuitton bags cost how much to make of that $1,950 kep paid?

                              Mrs Ho Chi Minh is taking home $0.03/hr
                              a legend and an out of work bum look a lot alike, daddy.

                              Comment


                              • Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers

                                Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                                That is great if you are taking "Political Philosophy 301" but in the real world none of that is happening in America in any of our lifetimes unless the entire system collapses.
                                Of course none of this will happen in our lifetimes. The premise is what happens once nobody works anymore, not what to run on in 2018. The point is the whole cluster of ideas of what is economically feasible and what is morally desirable will be as unrecognizable to us as our time would be to somebody from 1018 AD.
                                Cornell University
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