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Thread: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by wolverineTrumpet View Post
    The merits of a humanist chaplin.
    Humanism is something I can get behind, and I think a Humanist chaplin would be a great asset for our military personnel that don't believe in a particular dogma. He could even be a good resource for those that are followers of a religion. (If you question that, think of how a non-believer can still gain things from a church service)
    It appears that...by definition, humanists are atheists. Then based on the job description, I'm guessing there are far more qualified candidates to...'enable the free practice of religion for all the Sailors, Marines and Coast Guardsmen who serve'.

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    What does a non-believer gain from church attendance?

    A positive message? Well, assuming you aren't attending a fire & brimstone church, what does a non-believer stand to learn from the positive parts of a holy text that they couldn't deduce on their own? The modern Golden Rule is, "Don't be a dick." Most of us fail at it (some more than others), but the important thing is that you try.

    Community/social involvement? Well, if all of those people are believers and you aren't, what is the benefit there?
    Its both inspirational and informative. It directly leads to personal growth. And I promise, you don't need to be a Christian to get the benefits...but you do need an open mind.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Its both inspirational and informative. It directly leads to personal growth. And I promise, you don't need to be a Christian to get the benefits...but you do need an open mind.
    Open mind, indeed. Theists act as if existentially threatened by the existence of atheists. Atheists take the existence of theists in stride as just another kind of astrology.

    And therein lies the difference.

    We can live together in peace. You just can't force your silly sh-t on us. Is it really, really all that hard to wrap your head around? You can believe in any fool thing your daddy told you when you were impressionable. You can devote your whole life to it -- that's yours. But you can't impose any of that dreck on us, even when 99% of your neighbors believe it, too.

    That's the First Amendment in a nutshell. Don't like it? Move to a theocracy. You aint gettin' one here.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    And they accuse us of being "militant" just for fighting to uphold the free society envisioned by the founders.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    What does a non-believer gain from church attendance?

    A positive message? Well, assuming you aren't attending a fire & brimstone church, what does a non-believer stand to learn from the positive parts of a holy text that they couldn't deduce on their own? The modern Golden Rule is, "Don't be a dick." Most of us fail at it (some more than others), but the important thing is that you try.

    Community/social involvement? Well, if all of those people are believers and you aren't, what is the benefit there?
    Community? I run the HS group at my church. THere are a few of the kids in my group who aren't sure if they believe. We are very open about it. You can't force belief on anyone. Had one of the believers bring in a friend who had been Catholic and decided he didn't believe. He couldn't understand what it was people got out of Church. We had this whole discussion- went round and asked the kids what they believed, why they came, what they got out of it. They all had different views about God (or not) but --> Consensus--> they liked to come because they felt like the people at the church were their family. They felt cared about, felt they could go to most of the adults if they needed help, felt the Church gave them an avenue to do good that was organized (and provided a 'voice' that was listened to about issues they care about) , gave them a structure for morality even if it wasn't God based. Gave them a backstop if they needed one re moral issues. Mind you we are a liberal, inclusive church. Christ was inclusive- he ate with the undesirables and lectured the Pharisees for obsessing about things that didn't matter. We aren't Literalists and the church is based on questioning, thinking about what Scripture is saying and how does it apply to you, not being told it means X.

    Anyone with a modicum of knowledge regarding the founding of this country knows they did NOT have a State religion for a reason. The BS some of the Righty Tighty people sling about having to 'bring us back' to a Christian country are either disingenuous or practicing revisionist history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leswp1 View Post
    Community? I run the HS group at my church. THere are a few of the kids in my group who aren't sure if they believe. We are very open about it. You can't force belief on anyone. Had one of the believers bring in a friend who had been Catholic and decided he didn't believe. He couldn't understand what it was people got out of Church. We had this whole discussion- went round and asked the kids what they believed, why they came, what they got out of it. They all had different views about God (or not) but --> Consensus--> they liked to come because they felt like the people at the church were their family. They felt cared about, felt they could go to most of the adults if they needed help, felt the Church gave them an avenue to do good that was organized (and provided a 'voice' that was listened to about issues they care about) , gave them a structure for morality even if it wasn't God based. Gave them a backstop if they needed one re moral issues. Mind you we are a liberal, inclusive church. Christ was inclusive- he ate with the undesirables and lectured the Pharisees for obsessing about things that didn't matter. We aren't Literalists and the church is based on questioning, thinking about what Scripture is saying and how does it apply to you, not being told it means X.

    Anyone with a modicum of knowledge regarding the founding of this country knows they did NOT have a State religion for a reason. The BS some of the Righty Tighty people sling about having to 'bring us back' to a Christian country are either disingenuous or practicing revisionist history.
    The country was neutral on religion. No state religion but Faith was not discouraged.

    Was there prejudice and discrimination? Yup. Still is.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    The country was neutral on religion. No state religion but Faith was not discouraged.

    Was there prejudice and discrimination? Yup. Still is.
    Yes but there was no one Faith.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by leswp1 View Post
    Anyone with a modicum of knowledge regarding the founding of this country knows they did NOT have a State religion for a reason. The BS some of the Righty Tighty people sling about having to 'bring us back' to a Christian country are either disingenuous or practicing revisionist history.
    Absolutely. The overwhelming precedent at the time was that every country had a state religion (and in the case of Europe, we can cut to the chase and say state denomination of Christianity). The founding fathers went *way* off the reservation in order to avoid having one - if they'd intended for this country to have a state religion, they would have just written that down and 95% of the population wouldn't have found it that strange, even if they personally didn't belong to the selected one.

    They didn't even include any religious platitudes in the preamble, which would have been very tempting as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leswp1 View Post
    Yes but there was no one Faith.
    Not officially, but non Protestants were pretty much at the bottom. And then if you weren't mainstream you got looked down on.

    It was not until the mass immigration that Catholicism became "mainstream" and we always had those "restricted" associations that kept the Jews down. "Enlightenment" didn't come until the 60s in law. In practice it takes a lot longer.

    We should not have a theocracy but we shouldn't have a secular society either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    but we shouldn't have a secular society either.
    We should absolutely have a secular government, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    We should absolutely have a secular government, though.
    Yup.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Palm Sunday. When I attended church, I usually got a palm leaf on this day... which was thrown out when I got home.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Not officially, but non Protestants were pretty much at the bottom. And then if you weren't mainstream you got looked down on.

    It was not until the mass immigration that Catholicism became "mainstream" and we always had those "restricted" associations that kept the Jews down. "Enlightenment" didn't come until the 60s in law. In practice it takes a lot longer.

    We should not have a theocracy but we shouldn't have a secular society either.
    (Kepler-on-the-road) Religious freedom was something that in practice used to be a favor that the Protestant majority was granting the rest of us. The educated had let it all go but were content to let the Thumpers think they were something special because it didn't hurt anything, so the illusion persisted for the masses. But non-Protestants are large enough now that we're insisting on real equality, even in situations where they don't want to grant it as a gift, so they have the sads.

    This is happening in every other situation: race, gender, choice. The big shock that the dominant group has received is that American ideals aren't their personal property. They are enraged that those ideals are bigger than them, so they are acting out like spoiled children. The fell "oppressed" but what's really going on is they are finding out they're not special. For a snowflake that provokes a lot of anxiety and feelings of being picked on.

    It's been uneven in time: in the most progressive areas this transition from a false equality to a real equality started happening a hundred years ago and was complete fifty years ago. Now it's happening in the tipping point public culture: the schools, the media. So for the first time the orcs in the backwaters can't avoid it, and they are screaming like stuck pigs. But unless they actually resort to massive The Troubles level violence this ends with them finally being dissolved into the larger American culture. What we're seeing is the melting pot: after hundreds of years of isolation and fanaticism these Talibanesque tribal rubes are finally getting the American Treatment. It's transitional: within a few generations their herpa-derp parochialism will no longer be a national problem.
    Last edited by Anne85; 03-25-2018 at 03:44 PM.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Every time parishioners start reciting the various creeds and such during Catholic Mass, I hear "We are the Borg..." It's eerily reminiscent in the feeling I got when hearing a thousand voices all speaking in unison, using a droning cadence.
    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

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    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    Every time parishioners start reciting the various creeds and such during Catholic Mass, I hear "We are the Borg..." It's eerily reminiscent in the feeling I got when hearing a thousand voices all speaking in unison, using a droning cadence.
    Well the Nicene Creed has been around since 325 or so and we can all probably recite it from memory. It Is a personal affirmation of Faith as it begins "I believe in one God...", not "We believe..."

    Fun fact. Public recitation of the Creed did not occur until the "reforms" of V2. Prior to that the Creed was recited privately by the Priest and we all genuflected at "and was made Man..." (et homo factus est).

    You'll find the Nicene Creed in a number of faiths, particularly those that have a Mass. I know the Lutherans still have it, though Catholic is small "c", not big "C". I would assume the Anglicans would too.

    I believe in one God,
    the Father almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all things visible and invisible.

    I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the Only Begotten Son of God,
    born of the Father before all ages.

    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    consubstantial with the Father;
    through him all things were made.
    For us men and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven,
    and by the Holy Spirit
    was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
    he suffered death and was buried,
    and rose again on the third day
    in accordance with the Scriptures.
    He ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory
    to judge the living and the dead
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
    who with the Father and the Son
    is adored and glorified,
    who has spoken through the prophets.

    I believe in one, holy,
    catholic and apostolic Church.
    I confess one baptism
    for the forgiveness of sins
    and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    When the Anglicans do it, instead of kneeling they all just rattle their jewelry.
    It's a book of our true stories
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Well the Nicene Creed has been around since 325 or so and we can all probably recite it from memory. It Is a personal affirmation of Faith as it begins "I believe in one God...", not "We believe..."

    Fun fact. Public recitation of the Creed did not occur until the "reforms" of V2. Prior to that the Creed was recited privately by the Priest and we all genuflected at "and was made Man..." (et homo factus est).

    You'll find the Nicene Creed in a number of faiths, particularly those that have a Mass. I know the Lutherans still have it, though Catholic is small "c", not big "C". I would assume the Anglicans would too.
    You're focusing on the individual words rather than the experience. While a much more sever of an example, people who were alive during a certain period during, say, the 1930s might get the same feeling from current rhetoric that we're witnessing now. The words don't have to match up exactly for that to occur.
    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

    "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    When the Anglicans do it, instead of kneeling they all just rattle their jewelry.
    I figured you were going with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZcKTGtVhsA

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    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    You're focusing on the individual words rather than the experience. While a much more sever of an example, people who were alive during a certain period during, say, the 1930s might get the same feeling from current rhetoric that we're witnessing now. The words don't have to match up exactly for that to occur.
    You would prefer we said the Creed privately?

    I detect a prejudice against Catholics here. Am I mistaken?

    Sure we're different. We believe in a set inconvenient (uncomfortable) truths that are in conflict with modern society. So?

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    You would prefer we said the Creed privately?

    I detect a prejudice against Catholics here. Am I mistaken?

    Sure we're different. We believe in a set inconvenient (uncomfortable) truths that are in conflict with modern society. So?
    I'm marrying an ardent Catholic, and attend Mass weekly now. I like most of the people I meet. There's just the Borg factor to Mass when some 600 voices (normal Mass) are all droning out the same thing, in what sounds like a disinterested voices.
    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

    "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

    "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    I'm marrying an ardent Catholic, and attend Mass weekly now. I like most of the people I meet. There's just the Borg factor to Mass when some 600 voices (normal Mass) are all droning out the same thing, in what sounds like a disinterested voices.
    The problem there is the disinterest, not the Creed. Any religious creed should be said joyously, even shouted ecstatically, not muttered robotically. You're participating in the mystery of divine love in the presence of your (in this case literally) motherf-cking supernatural deity, ferchirssakes, you're not going over a shopping list.

    It isn't Catholicism that turns the vast majority of people into lowing cattle, it's their own lack of curiosity, imagination and, in a word, soul.

    The Pentecostals are morons but at least they're doing it right.
    Last edited by Kepler; 03-27-2018 at 10:06 AM.
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    We're coming rougher every time

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