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Thread: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    However there are exact specifics that are the core of what Jesus taught - i.e., aiding the poor, the less fortunate and those in need. To illustrate, specific faith events leading to Danny Thomas single handedly creating one of the top hospitals in the world for children in need. The Word... leading to faith...leading to outcomes that are directly tied back to both faith and the Word.
    Don't you think it's more likely that Danny Thomas was a good person who did good things, and Christianity happened to be the language through which he expressed his motivations for those things?

    Turn it around for the case of bad people who have done hateful things in the name of Christianity and I believe you will have no trouble seeing what I mean.

    I think religions and ideologies are arbitrary and hence they are not "true" in themselves, but their utility can be judged by whether people who subscribe to them do good things. I think the latter clause is your very point, so I believe you're tracking on this. So, for example, white supremacy does not seem to have resulted in an abundance of positive action.

    Religions, particularly monotheistic religions which like invasive species take over entire areas and push out all competitors, are hard to evaluate because of their dominance in a population. You can't evaluate the effect of x on a population when 90% of the population has x as its attribute. There's no control group.

    I don't think there's anything wrong in principle with the argument you're trying to make but I don't think you are going to find useful experimental conditions from which you can extract good data. There are too may confounding effects, not the least of which is social variables are almost never independent. You can read all about this in my new book, Sociology: Why It's All F-cked Up.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    The American court system is typically considered the best systems for identifying the truth that we have. It relies on a prosecution delivering facts, evidence, and other forms of argument to make their case. But equally important is the defense. Defense is so important...that the system appoints one when there isn't one. Why? Because with only one side in a debate...the outcome is a sham. The same holds for concepts.

    10 years ago, I posted pretty heavily supporting serious gun control. I was mostly alone in this...me vs. ardent gun supporters. Through Sandy Hook and Zimmerman, I was trolled nonstop with some posters collecting information on me and wanting to meet me in person. The board has thankfully moved closer to the position I hold. So I don't post nearly as much there...the outcome is still critical, but my value add is less so.

    Here, I have no need to offer defense to individuals whose motivations are impossible to discern. But as nobody else is doing it, I will offer defense to faith and because I know it, Christianity. Just as in defense anywhere else, that will include the positive side of Christianity and it must include comparatives with alternatives. After all, every point of view deserves a second side.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Don't you think it's more likely that Danny Thomas was a good person who did good things, and Christianity happened to be the language through which he expressed his motivations for those things?
    A good person would do good even without the fear of a magic bearded man in the sky.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    The American court system is typically considered the best systems for identifying the truth that we have. It relies on a prosecution delivering facts, evidence, and other forms of argument to make their case. But equally important is the defense. Defense is so important...that the system appoints one when there isn't one. Why? Because with only one side in a debate...the outcome is a sham. The same holds for concepts.

    10 years ago, I posted pretty heavily supporting serious gun control. I was mostly alone in this...me vs. ardent gun supporters. Through Sandy Hook and Zimmerman, I was trolled nonstop with some posters collecting information on me and wanting to meet me in person. The board has thankfully moved closer to the position I hold. So I don't post nearly as much there...the outcome is still critical, but my value add is less so.

    Here, I have no need to offer defense to individuals whose motivations are impossible to discern. But as nobody else is doing it, I will offer defense to faith and because I know it, Christianity. Just as in defense anywhere else, that will include the positive side of Christianity and it must include comparatives with alternatives. After all, every point of view deserves a second side.
    Well said, 5mn.

    Dont assume too much from people wanting to meet you in person, though. I've always wondered what a thinking gopher fan would look like.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by BassAle View Post
    A good person would do good even without the fear of a magic bearded man in the sky.
    To his credit I don't think 5mn concentrates on either the bribery of heaven or the threat of hell. He is saying that Jesus' message of love is the wellspring of these good deeds, and that while there are plenty of other ways to arrive at those aims Christianity has proven itself to be a capacious and small c catholic purveyor of that message.

    I think he may have it backwards -- that good people may self-select as Christian social activists. But even that would still speak well of Christianity. The problem with trying to draw conclusions about comparative populations is that Christianity dominates many of the geographical spaces it enters, so while all those good people are Christians... so are all the bad people. You may as well be an LA resident and cite that Lakers fans help little old ladies across the street. Yeah, they do, but that's because nearly everybody in LA is a Laker fan -- the pimps and the Republicans are also Lakers fans.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    To his credit I don't think 5mn concentrates on either the bribery of heaven or the threat of hell. He is saying that Jesus' message of love is the wellspring of these good deeds, and that while there are plenty of other ways to arrive at those aims Christianity has proven itself to be a capacious and small c catholic purveyor of that message.

    I think he may have it backwards -- that good people may self-select as Christian social activists. But even that would still speak well of Christianity. The problem with trying to draw conclusions about comparative populations is that Christianity dominates many of the geographical spaces it enters, so while all those good people are Christians... so are all the bad people. You may as well be an LA resident and cite that Lakers fans help little old ladies across the street. Yeah, they do, but that's because nearly everybody in LA is a Laker fan -- the pimps and the Republicans are also Lakers fans.
    right, but I think we agree those people would find a way to be good even if they had never heard Jesus's Message.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by BassAle View Post
    right, but I think we agree those people would find a way to be good even if they had never heard Jesus's Message.
    My point is they are already good. The Christian messages are mechanisms to translate their goodness into activity. In the US almost all of us are bombarded by Christian messages like cosmic radiation, all our lives. Good people found hospitals and bad people cut hospital funding and give the money to the rich. Both populations are Christians. So the idea that the Christianness of the population is a logical precursor to the goodness of the hospital gift (or the badness of the CPAC fondling) is wrong. The Christian messages are simply giving the already good people a way to connect their goodness to the world.

    Analogy, with apologies to Spinoza:

    (1) The World is a setting in which work needs to be done.

    (2) People are self-aware power supply which have the power to consciously choice where their power is applied. Robots make these decisions based on their inaccessible programming which appears to be the result of their hardware specs, their initialization, and feedback with The World and other People.

    (3) Institutions are passive machines that can perform work.

    (4) Ideologies are bundles of passive wires which link any power supply to only certain machines. Without ideologies, no work is done by institutions in the world -- the machines lie dormant not connected to power supplies.

    The Christianity ideology package has a wire called "love thy neighbor." This wire connects to the hospital machine. It also has a wire called "monotheism." This wire connects to the Inquisition machine. People choose to use wires based on characteristics they already have. Good people use medicine to help people; bad people use the Inquisition to torture people.

    The Capitalism ideology has a wire called "maximize shareholder value." This connects to the Shoe Factory machine which produces shoes for people but also pollution that makes people sick. The Capitalism ideology also has wires called "wealth is proof of social utility" and "social utility equals ethical value." Bad people use those wires to run the factory night and day: rich people get the shoes and poor people get the pollution, and that's a win-win according to the people who use those wires. Good people still run the shoe factory because people need shoes, but they have a wire from the Socialism ideology called "people should not suffer for others' wealth" (note: there is an eerily similar wire in the Christianity package -- perhaps Socialism has Christian roots or vice versa?) which connects to another machine called the EPA which interacts with the shoe factory to limit pollution, and to another called Consumer Protection Bureau to ensure the shoes aren't dangerous. Also, good people use the Socialist wire "All people equally deserve basic necessities" to connect to the Bank machine to help the poor access the money to pay for shoes they could not otherwise afford. Bad people want to cut all those wires because they are preventing the Shoe Factory from running as fast as it can night and day, maximizing shareholder value, which is what they care about.

    Note that the ideologies are a mix of many different wires, many with mutually exclusive or even contradictory ethical consequences (Moral Standards are themselves a whole suite of ideologies which partially overlap with these other ideologies). So the choices people make whether to accentuate the good or bad within an ideology pre-exist their contact with the ideology. The 2:7:1 Rule is the Queen of Nature.
    Last edited by Kepler; 04-13-2018 at 12:26 PM.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by BassAle View Post
    right, but I think we agree those people would find a way to be good even if they had never heard Jesus's Message.
    That's an interesting question, I think.

    My own view of the bible has always been that it's just a version of Aesop's fables. Basically a collection of stories with lessons or teachings, but rather than have a bunch of animals as the main characters, we've transferred them into ancestors of our own.

    I think all of those are important. Whether you collect those lessons from Aesop, from the bible, from your parents, or otherwise, it's those lessons that likely play a large role in shaping the extent to which you do the "good deeds" referred to.

    Without those lessons are humans naturally inclined to act charitably? Not so sure about that.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Don't you think it's more likely that Danny Thomas was a good person who did good things, and Christianity happened to be the language through which he expressed his motivations for those things?
    Talent often requires inspiration to maximize. Thomas is an example of a somewhat common outcome of inspiration coming to someone with extraordinary talent.

    Many people seem to know that I once vowed to Saint Jude that I’d build a shrine in his name if he’d help me through a difficult time in my life. Yet the fascinating part of that story is how, when I failed to keep my part of the bargain, that saint resolutely refused to let me off the hook. My parents had come from Lebanon, a country where shrines dedicated to favorite patron saints are familiar sights. Often these shrines are simply statues, or little places where you can stop to meditate and pray. And, believe me, as one of nine kids in a very poor immigrant family, I was grateful for all the protection I could get! My mother did not hesitate to make her own spiritual vows. When my little brother Danny was a few months old, he was badly bitten by a rat that jumped into his crib. He screamed and went into convulsions. At the hospital the doctors told my mother that Danny was dying, but she wouldn’t accept that. She went to her knees in prayer, promising God that if her baby’s life were saved she’d beg alms for the poor for a year. Danny got well, and every day for 12 months my mother, herself one of the poorest of the poor, living in shabby, cramped quarters over a pool hall, went out and begged pennies from door to door. My mother’s faith in God was so strong that she could not possibly give in to fear or hopelessness. To her, despair was a tool of the devil—it was doubting God, and that was a sin. As each of us children was born, she turned us over to God and after that she would not let herself, or us, forget that we had Him to turn to.

    I always had my heart set on being an entertainer, and during the seven years I spent at the burlesque theater I studied some of the best comedians in the business and grew all the more determined to be one too. In June 1940, a baby was on the way. I was making two dollars a night as an M.C. at a Detroit supper club called the Club Morocco. On Tuesday night a man came into the Club Morocco. He was celebrating something. His pockets were filled with little cards that he was handing out to people as he tried to tell them about an incredible thing that had just happened to him. His wife was in a hospital where she’d been facing an operation for a deadly cancer. All night long this man had knelt on the cold marble floor of the hospital and prayed the same prayer over and over again. When the sun came up in the morning the doctors called him in to report that, inexplicably, miraculously, his wife’s cancer had disappeared. “This is the prayer that did it,” he said, handing me one of the cards. It was the prayer to Saint Jude. All that night I thought about this man and his appeal to a saint whom I knew only slightly as “Patron of the Hopeless” or “The Forgotten Saint.” Though an apostle of Jesus, Jude was not one of the saints whom many Catholics turned to, probably because of his name, which was really Judas Thaddeus, far too similar to that of the hated Judas Iscariot.

    The next day I went into a church to pray, and when I reached into my pocket for a coin, I found the card the man had given me. Then and there I felt moved to make my vow. I did not ask for anything specific llike money or fame, but I promised Saint Jude that if he would help me find some clear course for my life, I would build him a shrine. The day after the Club Morocco closed, I drove my old Buick down to Toledo and left Rosemarie with my parents while I took one last stab at looking for work in show business. Very quickly one little radio job led to another, and in a short time I was flourishing as a character actor. Then I tried my hand again as a stand-up entertainer. I opened before 18 customers in a converted automobile showroom called the 5100 Club; in a few months there were that many people waiting outside trying to get in. Success simply piled upon success.

    And what happened to my vow to Saint Jude? Nothing. I was so busy that for two years I had forgotten about it. But Saint Jude had not. On the way home after a night at the 5100 Club, I used to go to the 5:00 a.m. mass at St. Clement’s Church. One morning I picked up a little pamphlet that lay beside me in the pew and, to my surprise, read about a novena—a nine-day period of devotion—about to be offered to none other than my old friend Saint Jude. Even more surprising was the information that there, on the south side of Chicago, was the first national shrine to Saint Jude. Chicago was Saint Jude’s town, too! He wanted me to know it. I did not forget Saint Jude again. I knew I had to do something about fulfilling my vow, but I couldn’t make up my mind what kind of a shrine I should build. Rosemarie suggested that I think about a statue, or perhaps a side altar, but somehow nothing seemed right to me. Time went by. I moved on to New York. My career progressed to movies and TV. Still I could not make up my mind.

    And then came the dream. I dreamed one night about a little boy being injured in a car accident. He was rushed to the hospital, but for some reason the doctors were reluctant to treat him and the boy bled to death. The dream was so vivid, so horrifying, that it troubled me for days. But out of that dream came an idea, an idea born of a lifetime of experiences. I thought about the man who had prayed for his wife all night on the cold hospital floor. I thought of my infant brother Danny grabbing hold of life just when the doctors said he was dying, and slowly I began to see Saint Jude’s shrine as a hospital.

    And what better way to honor the Patron Saint of the Hopeless than with a place where “dying” children, children with “incurable” diseases could come to be healed? That, of course, was the beginning of Saint Jude’s Children’s Research Hospital in Memphis. Tennessee. It is the only institution on this earth dedicated solely to the conquest of catastrophic diseases. It is open to children of all faiths and races regardless of their parents’ ability to pay. No family ever pays for the services rendered there. They are free.

    It took me ten years to raise the money to get the hospital started. I did it mainly through benefit performances, going all over the country raising money from Catholics and Protestants and Jews—and Muslims, too—and especially getting help from people of my own Lebanese heritage. I never went before one of those benefit audiences that I didn’t think about my mother going door to door begging pennies, for, in my own way, I was doing the same thing, for the same reason. Today when I look at the hospital that Saint Jude brought into being, when I see the hope that the Saint of the Hopeless has brought to thousands of parents and their youngsters, I am as certain as my mother was certain, that to right despair is to affirm our faith in God and in the love He has for all of us.

    https://www.guideposts.org/faith-and...on-keeping-his
    Last edited by 5mn_Major; 04-13-2018 at 11:20 AM.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    That's an interesting question, I think.

    My own view of the bible has always been that it's just a version of Aesop's fables. Basically a collection of stories with lessons or teachings, but rather than have a bunch of animals as the main characters, we've transferred them into ancestors of our own.

    I think all of those are important. Whether you collect those lessons from Aesop, from the bible, from your parents, or otherwise, it's those lessons that likely play a large role in shaping the extent to which you do the "good deeds" referred to.

    Without those lessons are humans naturally inclined to act charitably? Not so sure about that.
    There's really no way to separate people from their cultural milieu -- a person raised in a vat would, in some ways, not really be a person. Aristotle called man "the political being" but the etymologists think from his word choice there and elsewhere he really meant "the civic being," where civic connotes social connection. Indeed, Aristotle's time recognized the civitas as a pre-requistive condition for being human. There were human-like creatures outside the city, but they were, literally, "barbarous."

    Note that a "city" in this time was a gathering of about 1000 families, so figure about 10k people -- a small college campus now.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    1) 100% of the articles posted here are cherry-picked negative towards Christians - a common atheist approach to paint all Christians as bad
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    After all, every point of view deserves a second side.
    BS. 99% of this board condemns white supremacy (sorry, Flag), but I don't see you on here klamoring for konsideration of their views. Where are your vociferous defenses of Trump, who is very much a second-sider on this board?
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    BS. 99% of this board condemns white supremacy (sorry, Flag), but I don't see you on here klamoring for konsideration of their views. Where are your vociferous defenses of Trump, who is very much a second-sider on this board?
    Soo...everyone who believes in freedom of speech and the right to defense should be forced to argue all sides of every point?
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    I think this thread could use more religious dialog. I'm currently drawn to this concept of comparatives - knowing what you aren't helps illuminate what you are. And so I'm expecting to post some more musings.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Thoughts:

    Facebook is a terrible place for religious discussion too. Especially if certain people think posting single Bible verses and mindless prayers is their "witness" for today. Puzzles me that when atheists take verses out of context, it's bad, but when Christians do it, EVERYTHING IS AWESOME!

    Apparently, taking verses out of context is bad, but we can cherry pick from Leviticus at will. Uh, no. Either we take the entire Bible in context, or we're free to cherry pick the entire thing.

    It's clear that spiritually, some people aren't worthy of solid food. Oh, they've warmed pews for countless years, but when it's time to get down and dirty, they don't want to.

    Went through the Bible and where the characters took decisive action, I replaced it with "thoughts and prayers." Was totally depressed. Then again, "thoughts and prayers and Jesus will fix it" is what I'm seeing these days.

    I'm sure I could go back to my old church and try and educate them on LGBT issues. But when you're telling me "you can control your tendencies," I'd have an easier time nailing Jello to a tree.

    Even Christianity is a strip mall... if you don't like what you're hearing in one denomination, you can go to the next.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Thanks for coming to the table. Some interesting stuff here.

    Quote Originally Posted by MissThundercat View Post
    Facebook is a terrible place for religious discussion too. Especially if certain people think posting single Bible verses and mindless prayers is their "witness" for today.
    FB is bad for many types of personal discussions - politics being biggie. I'm guessing some had really positive experiences. You can always inform them that you don't appreciate their postings.

    Quote Originally Posted by MissThundercat View Post
    Puzzles me that when atheists take verses out of context, it's bad, but when Christians do it, EVERYTHING IS AWESOME!

    Apparently, taking verses out of context is bad, but we can cherry pick from Leviticus at will. Uh, no. Either we take the entire Bible in context, or we're free to cherry pick the entire thing.
    While the general concept is on surface correct, I would disagree with its application. Why? Because of chronology.

    The world changes. Mores change. People change. Are criminals not capable of being rehabilitated?

    The broader point is that Jesus changed the narrative. The change is one of the most fundamental parts of the faith. Indeed, Christianity is not defined as following in the footsteps of the Bible...but rather following in the footsteps of Jesus. Why have the OT then? Because it lays the foundation...but the Gospels are the faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by MissThundercat View Post
    It's clear that spiritually, some people aren't worthy of solid food. Oh, they've warmed pews for countless years, but when it's time to get down and dirty, they don't want to.

    Went through the Bible and where the characters took decisive action, I replaced it with "thoughts and prayers." Was totally depressed. Then again, "thoughts and prayers and Jesus will fix it" is what I'm seeing these days.

    I'm sure I could go back to my old church and try and educate them on LGBT issues. But when you're telling me "you can control your tendencies," I'd have an easier time nailing Jello to a tree.

    Even Christianity is a strip mall... if you don't like what you're hearing in one denomination, you can go to the next.
    I don't know if people just don't want to get their hands dirty. From where I come, there are two common types of Christians: those who help others and those who need help. This dual role situation isn't merely acceptable, its pretty cool. Moral support is one type of assistance. As a business strategist, I have offered help in mentorship...another important form of support. Anyways, I'm guessing some of those you're referring to with 'thoughts and prayers' have been recipients of help...while others are out helping to fix urban blight, for example. Faith, at least the Christian faith, is an open and free marketplace for personal help.

    Additionally, in many ways church is like food, news or healthcare. Everyone has an opinion as to what is right. But don't go and eat McDonalds every day just because they're selling it. Unlike those other offerings, the exact message in Christianity is there for everyone to see. There are many amazing, innovative churches that get it. They are inclusive, focus on the heart of the matter and make everything very actionable.
    Last edited by 5mn_Major; 04-15-2018 at 11:33 AM.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Thanks for coming to the table. Some interesting stuff here.



    FB is bad for many types of personal discussions - politics being biggie. I'm guessing some had really positive experiences. You can always inform them that you don't appreciate their postings.



    While the general concept is on surface correct, I would disagree with its application. Why? Because of chronology.

    The world changes. Mores change. People change. Are criminals not capable of being rehabilitated?

    The broader point is that Jesus changed the narrative. The change is one of the most fundamental parts of the faith. Indeed, Christianity is not defined as following in the footsteps of the Bible...but rather following in the footsteps of Jesus. Why have the OT then? Because it lays the foundation...but the Gospels are the faith.



    I don't know if people just don't want to get their hands dirty. From where I come, there are two common types of Christians: those who help others and those who need help. This dual role situation isn't merely acceptable, its pretty cool. Moral support is one type of assistance. As a business strategist, I have offered help in mentorship...another important form of support. Anyways, I'm guessing some of those you're referring to with 'thoughts and prayers' have been recipients of help...while others are out helping to fix urban blight, for example. Faith, at least the Christian faith, is an open and free marketplace for personal help.

    Additionally, in many ways church is like food, news or healthcare. Everyone has an opinion as to what is right. But don't go and eat McDonalds every day just because they're selling it. Unlike those other offerings, the exact message in Christianity is there for everyone to see. There are many amazing, innovative churches that get it. They are inclusive, focus on the heart of the matter and make everything very actionable.
    Not even that. Talking about people who never got past Psalm 23. People who have a 3rd grade understanding of Scripture.

    Actually, "thoughts and prayers" are the Christian who can see the situation needs help, but refuse to do anything. Thoughts and prayers have to be followed by action or they're just empty words.
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  19. #999
    unofan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Indeed, Christianity is not defined as following in the footsteps of the Bible...but rather following in the footsteps of Jesus. Why have the OT then? Because it lays the foundation...but the Gospels are the faith.
    My problem with this is it's still incompatible with a supposedly infallible, omnipotent deity. If the God of Abraham is infallible, and Jesus is God made flesh, why did the narrative need changing?

    And we've gone round and round before on how mainstream Christianity relies on more than just the 4 gospels. Again, you don't have to believe that, but you do have to acknowledge that your interpretation doesn't match up with the majority of others.
    Last edited by unofan; 04-15-2018 at 12:23 PM.

  20. #1000
    If Only You Knew MissThundercat's Avatar
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    My problem with this is it's still incompatible with a supposedly infallible, omnipotent deity. If the God of Abraham is infallible, and Jesus is God made flesh, why did the narrative need changing?

    And we've gone round and round before on how mainstream Christianity relies on more than just the 4 gospels. Again, you don't have to believe that, but you do have to acknowledge that your interpretation doesn't match up with the majority of others.
    And Jesus did come to fulfill the Law.
    twitter: PipersHouse920, instagram: bobambermarie
    “Don't bend; don't water it down; don't try to make it logical; don't edit your own soul according to the fashion. Rather, follow your most intense obsessions mercilessly.”
    ― Franz Kafka
    Adventures With Amber Marie

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