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Thread: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Case in point...would you say that you never post in the religion thread? Afterall, why would you...you don't believe in God.
    Because I believe in religion -- it's a social fact. And I'm fascinated by it, just like I'm fascinated by horror movies and politics and porn -- it's human beings inventing weird, creative ways to entertain themselves and try to get at a particular itch.

    I love oblique attacks on meaning and religion is one of the best human beings have ever made. Poetry is better and comedy is far better, but religion is the only game human beings have ever invented that anybody can play. Because of that, religion has all the voices of man that ever existed clambering in it, shaping it, re-inventing it. It's even better than chess, and chess is pretty d-mn great.

    I am hard on you in particular for selfish reasons: your particular error, the straightforward and unapologetic equation of your faith with "truth," is in truth no dumber than any other person of faith's Missing Of The Point. It just happens to grind my gears in particular because it is the aesthetic equivalent of iconoclasm. In your perfect world, the effulgence of religion -- it's endless, ridiculous diversity -- is replaced by a machine punching out identical templates of one extraordinarily dull and fractionally insignificant instance of this great art. You would burn all the libraries of poems except for one limerick, which isn't even dirty.

    My fury at you in particular is my own autobiography, and I should probably stop it. It's not like you're ever going to come close. I promise to stop heckling and hectoring you. Evidently you can be bounded in a nutshell and count yourself a king of infinite space, and quite frankly that is something precious and exemplary. Please accept my sincere apologies.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Life's rich pageant.

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  3. #343
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Because I believe in religion -- it's a social fact. And I'm fascinated by it, just like I'm fascinated by horror movies and politics and porn -- it's human beings inventing weird, creative ways to entertain themselves and try to get at a particular itch.

    I love oblique attacks on meaning and religion is one of the best human beings have ever made. Poetry is better and comedy is far better, but religion is the only game human beings have ever invented that anybody can play. Because of that, religion has all the voices of man that ever existed clambering in it, shaping it, re-inventing it. It's even better than chess, and chess is pretty d-mn great.

    I am hard on you in particular for selfish reasons: your particular error, the straightforward and unapologetic equation of your faith with "truth," is in truth no dumber than any other person of faith's Missing Of The Point. It just happens to grind my gears in particular because it is the aesthetic equivalent of iconoclasm. In your perfect world, the effulgence of religion -- it's endless, ridiculous diversity -- is replaced by a machine punching out identical templates of one extraordinarily dull and fractionally insignificant instance of this great art. You would burn all the libraries of poems except for one limerick, which isn't even dirty.

    My fury at you in particular is my own autobiography, and I should probably stop it. It's not like you're ever going to come close. I promise to stop heckling and hectoring you. Evidently you can be bounded in a nutshell and count yourself a king of infinite space, and quite frankly that is something precious and exemplary. Please accept my sincere apologies.
    Frankly I don't see you as harsh on anyone - if so, I would think its likely I've said worse things about you (and I wasn't 'harsh').

    I may be wrong, but it appears that you have thoroughly indicted faith. And it appears that the faith youre fighting is based in the 1940s...at least, I don't see it in Minneapolis. From what I can tell, you have a two pronged rationale approach to your dislike:

    1) the 'stupidity' of belief in a God that you don't believe in.

    So your position is that those of faith are wrong because God can't exist. Aren't you becoming the same black and white ideologue as those you despise? By inferring broad conclusions based on extreme individual examples mirrors pundit ideologue tactics. You feel this way, because others have no evidence that God exists. Where's the evidence God doesn't exist? Can't you have some position in between absolutely yes and absolutely no? That to me seems far more rationale and normal.

    I can't necessarily speak for other religions...but in the end, Christianity isn't about God existing or not existing. If a lampshade was God, what purpose would it have? Nothing. Meaning (the Word) makes all the difference. God is love. End of story. If God actually does or doesn't exist, it wouldn't change a thing...you'd still have everyone doing what they're doing. Am I right? Its about the meaning...and doing good for your fellow man. Don't be an a hole.

    Regardless, you seem like someone who's out for the best for people. Why would you not support others finding the best path for themselves? Maybe atheism is the best path. Great, they should do that. Maybe faith is the best path? They should do that. There are 9 different major personality types and one size absolutely does not fit all. Do the greater good and don't discourage people from finding the best path for themselves.

    Other reason for your dislike seems to be 2) examples of bad behaviors by those with faith. Of course, there's validity there. But as I keep saying extremists are baked into society...you find them everywhere. There are extremist Germans, extremist blacks, extremist Americans, extremist atheists and yes, extremist Christians. Extremism is not created by Germany, blacks, Americans, atheism or Christianity. Extremists have the make up already and are drawn to those ideologies.

    I'm sure I don't have to tell you about the logical fallacies tied to making assumptions about assuming bad Christian behavior equals bad Christianity - including the fallacy of composition. You have shown articles of bad Christians. I have shown articles of Christians driving charitable outcomes and that have saved lives - and society has been impacted in a positive way by the Gospels. While I would never claim all Christians are good people...I'm not sure how skeptics can deny claims that faith is improving countless lives globally through it efforts. Lastly, I don't understand why atheists burn so much capital fighting what is really an important and positive tool in so many peoples lives...when they could be using that energy to enact real good in society in other ways.
    Last edited by 5mn_Major; 11-08-2017 at 11:48 AM.
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    Well, it's not all bad with my family. I do have my stepmom, my brother and his wife, and a few cousins. Talked to one last night. I have that set's support at least.

    And 5mn_Major, do I believe ALL Christians are horrible human beings? No. There are good people who do love me no matter what. However, it's people like my aunt that ruin it for the rest of you.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    THose people are not Christians, they just think they are

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    A lot of people are like the Pharisees when it comes to Christianity - they like to make it part of their public personal brand. It's often because they are hiding some skeletons.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    So your position is that those of faith are wrong because God can't exist. Aren't you becoming the same black and white ideologue as those you despise? By inferring broad conclusions based on extreme individual examples mirrors pundit ideologue tactics. You feel this way, because others have no evidence that God exists. Where's the evidence God doesn't exist? Can't you have some position in between absolutely yes and absolutely no? That to me seems far more rationale and normal.
    You're putting words in atheists' mouths - or rather, a word: can't. It's not that God can't exist. There's just absolutely no evidence that shows that existence. Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence, but nothing has ever been proven to be "true." Atheistic scientists believe in the likely. It's not that God can't exist, but based on the available evidence, it's just not likely (at all) that s/he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    If God actually does or doesn't exist, it wouldn't change a thing...doing good for your fellow man. Don't be an a hole
    Exactly. So why are you so hell-bent on pushing Christianity specifically instead of just being nice to each other generally?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Extremists have the make up already and are drawn to those ideologies.
    Gosh, can't imagine why extremists would be drawn to an ideology founded on the guy who said, "I am the ultimate truth. Nobody comes to know God except through me."


    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Lastly, I don't understand why atheists burn so much capital fighting what is really an important and positive tool in so many peoples lives...when they could be using that energy to enact real good in society in other ways.
    Because we can easily keep the baby (being nice to each other), while simultaneously getting rid of a metric crap-ton of bathwater (dogma, extremism, elitism, exclusivity, etc). Why pay for the overhead of a brand name when the source code is in the public domain?
    Last edited by LynahFan; 11-13-2017 at 12:31 AM.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    Because we can easily keep the baby (being nice to each other), while simultaneously getting rid of a metric crap-ton of bathwater (dogma, extremism, elitism, exclusivity, etc). Why pay for the overhead of a brand name when the source code is in the public domain?
    Exactly.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    There's just absolutely no evidence that shows that existence. Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence, but nothing has ever been proven to be "true." Atheistic scientists believe in the likely. It's not that God can't exist, but based on the available evidence, it's just not likely (at all) that s/he does.
    No. There is 'just no evidence that God exists'. I have never met anyone who disagrees with this. Atheism by definition is 'the belief that God doesn't exist'...not that there's no evidence. Agnostics are unsure of God.

    Assuming atheistic scientists believe that God probably doesn't exist because there is no evidence that S/He does exist...sounds like an appeal to ignorance (beginning to like this logic stuff). That conclusion doesn't sound super scientific to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    Because we can easily keep the baby (being nice to each other), while simultaneously getting rid of a metric crap-ton of bathwater (dogma, extremism, elitism, exclusivity, etc). Why pay for the overhead of a brand name when the source code is in the public domain?
    So...if I could prove to you 1) that you can be an agnostic and be part of the team and 2) that being part of this team net improves your life and/or the lives of others...would you take a look at joining the Christian movement?

    The answer to this question is actually quite important.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    No. There is 'just no evidence that God exists'. I have never met anyone who disagrees with this. Atheism by definition is 'the belief that God doesn't exist'...not that there's no evidence. Agnostics are unsure of God.

    Assuming atheistic scientists believe that God probably doesn't exist because there is no evidence that S/He does exist...sounds like an appeal to ignorance (beginning to like this logic stuff). That conclusion doesn't sound super scientific to me.



    So...if I could prove to you 1) that you can be an agnostic and be part of the team and 2) that being part of this team net improves your life and/or the lives of others...would you take a look at joining the Christian movement?

    The answer to this question is actually quite important.
    If an agnostic can be part of the team as long as she accepts the philosophical tenets of your idea of christianity, why can't an athiest?

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by burd View Post
    If an agnostic can be part of the team as long as she accepts the philosophical tenets of your idea of christianity, why can't an athiest?
    By being part of the team...I mean participating in team activities - learning about the Bible, joining with other Christians in Christian activities, etc. Sitting at home doing nothing doesn't count...an atheist participating with Christians in Christian activities? Might work. While I've seen agnostics doing this...have not encountered a true atheists able to stomach them.

    Again the question is an important one:

    If I could prove to you 1) that you can be an agnostic and be active in Christian activities and 2) that being part of these activities net improves your life and/or the lives of others...would you take a look at joining the Christian movement?
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    So this makes me wonder- why do you need to do things labeled 'Christian'? Jesus was all about doing. I don't recall much of the Bible telling people to study, study, study. In fact I recall a whole lot of Jesus saying that the obsession with the 'Law' was misguided. That doing the right thing was way more important. If people are actively helping, doing things that fit with Christian Tenets why must they engage in 'Christian' activities? Serious question.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    By being part of the team...I mean participating in team activities - learning about the Bible, joining with other Christians in Christian activities, etc. Sitting at home doing nothing doesn't count...an atheist participating with Christians in Christian activities? Might work. While I've seen agnostics doing this...have not encountered a true atheists able to stomach them.

    Again the question is an important one:

    If I could prove to you 1) that you can be an agnostic and be active in Christian activities and 2) that being part of these activities net improves your life and/or the lives of others...would you take a look at joining the Christian movement?
    Odd. I find Atheists much more willing to look deeply at things than the avg Christian. I run the HS discussion group at my church. The 'believers' do way less thinking than the doubters. We had someone bring an atheist friend and he was much more able to look at all sorts of angles than the kids who were brought up believing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    No. There is 'just no evidence that God exists'. I have never met anyone who disagrees with this. Atheism by definition is 'the belief that God doesn't exist'...not that there's no evidence. Agnostics are unsure of God.

    Assuming atheistic scientists believe that God probably doesn't exist because there is no evidence that S/He does exist...sounds like an appeal to ignorance (beginning to like this logic stuff). That conclusion doesn't sound super scientific to me.



    So...if I could prove to you 1) that you can be an agnostic and be part of the team and 2) that being part of this team net improves your life and/or the lives of others...would you take a look at joining the Christian movement?

    The answer to this question is actually quite important.
    I fully believe #1 already - I grew up I'm a church (I'm talking up to 6 church events per week), and there were many doubters (including me) out there swinging hammers and cutting up firewood with us as we helped out the poor in our community.

    I am super curious how you think you can *prove* #2 - that I personally or others in general would be be better off if I stopped helping others so much and used that time to sing hymns in front of some stained glass windows.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    I fully believe #1 already - I grew up I'm a church (I'm talking up to 6 church events per week), and there were many doubters (including me) out there swinging hammers and cutting up firewood with us as we helped out the poor in our community.

    I am super curious how you think you can *prove* #2 - that I personally or others in general would be be better off if I stopped helping others so much and used that time to sing hymns in front of some stained glass windows.
    My memory of religious upbringing is a little dim. Going into the teenage years, I was pretty diligent in preparing for catechism, learning about love and forgiveness and old testament parables. As I aged out of my teenage years, what really stuck with me was that admonition: YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER!!!

    Book of James, I believe.

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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by burd View Post
    Book of James, I believe.
    Indeed it is.
    Last edited by Kepler; 11-14-2017 at 08:30 PM.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Quote Originally Posted by burd View Post
    My memory of religious upbringing is a little dim. Going into the teenage years, I was pretty diligent in preparing for catechism, learning about love and forgiveness and old testament parables. As I aged out of my teenage years, what really stuck with me was that admonition: YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER!!!

    Book of James, I believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Indeed it is.
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    They never disappoint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
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    Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Agnostic is just a modifier, ie an agnostic atheist simply doesn’t believ god exists based on a lack of evidence. Whereas a strong atheist believes that god doesn’t exist. I think people consider themselves “agnostic” but in reality they’re agnostic atheists.

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