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Thread: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

  1. #121

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    3) For Dems, I completely disagree with dropping reproductive rights as a campaign issue.
    You're "disagreeing" with nobody because nobody suggested that. The suggestion is that Democrats continue to actively promote reproductive rights and push pro-choice candidates HARD, but they don't slam the door against anti-choice votes and candidates. We don't cater to the latter but we welcome them and don't say "if you aren't pro-choice you are teh devil get thee behind me!" The latter is what the social liberal wing has been doing ever since we took over academia, and while it's perfect for the ethos of the liberal conveyor belt it is poison to half the country -- the half we need to make inroads into in order to win elections so we can protect reproductive rights.
    Last edited by Kepler; 08-11-2017 at 10:24 AM.
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  2. #122
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    This. There is no such thing as an actual Independent, it's just a label for people who eschew labels. But they're just as partisan and locked in as the party members.
    This is me, totally. I would refer to myself as an "independent" because I did not want to be labeled. I still don't consider myself a democrat though because I think that title should be confined to someone who is actually a member of their party. I now "label" myself as a progressive. I once went back and tried to remember my voting records and at one point in my 30s I voted about 2/3 D and about 1/3 R. A few of those votes were cast for republicans runnning unopposed, but eventually I stopped voting in general elections for people who were running unopposed. I will also say the last republican I voted for was in the 2000 Michigan presidential primary when I voted for McCain. I have not given a single republican a vote in the 21st century, and my guess is I never will again.

    But I'm still not a democrat.

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.




    Translation: "The generals told me we have a plan; I trust them - haven't read it! Now, you said my ball went out of bounds? Yeah, don't count that shot."
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  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by alfablue View Post
    I've never understood how real R voters can stand by their party worry so much about the deficit and debt, when their party has been the one who built that up via their votes over the decades. It's always- increase military spending, cut other funding not equally, and then cut taxes. When was the last actual balanced budget that R's have come out with? President Clinton at least has a surplus by the time he was done.
    Our dilemma. They campaign on X and once they get to DC, Do The opposite. After a brief period of hope that they would see the errors of their ways, we turn on them and let them get voted out of office either by voting for somebody else in the primary or staying away in the general.

    It's all very frustrating. Maybe if we had somebody in the leadership who believed in what the GOP campaigned on, things would be better.

  5. #125
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Abortion is here to stay. Period

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Getting rid of the mortgage interest deduction would be instant and total suicide. Nobody who voted for that would survive re-election.
    One of the biggest subsidies in the tax code.

    I prefer counting it all, everyone files single and gets $45,000 off the top as the standard exclusion. Pay a % (15 & 20%) on the rest.

    Corporations use GAAP and have a $1 million exclusion and pay 15% on the excess.

    The middle class pays a bit. LeBron pays a lot, Bill Gates pays more. Sears pays nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mookie1995 View Post
    Abortion is here to stay. Period
    Unfortunately, given the current political and social climate, yes. However, nothing is set in concrete and I pray that one day attitudes will change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    One of the biggest subsidies in the tax code.

    I prefer counting it all, everyone files single and gets $45,000 off the top as the standard exclusion. Pay a % (15 & 20%) on the rest.

    Corporations use GAAP and have a $1 million exclusion and pay 15% on the excess.

    The middle class pays a bit. LeBron pays a lot, Bill Gates pays more. Sears pays nothing.
    Meanwhile you're running a huge deficit because you just lowered taxes on the LeBrons and Gateses of the world by 1/3rd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Getting rid of the mortgage interest deduction would be instant and total suicide. Nobody who voted for that would survive re-election.
    Do many of the super rich actually have mortgages? I know a lot of people from 90-99 do but what about that top one percent? I actually think getting rid of it would do a lot of good for the country overall. The deduction is an incentive to borrow more than they should and buy more house than they would otherwise. It is also behind some of the crazy housing prices in certain areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    Do many of the super rich actually have mortgages? I know a lot of people from 90-99 do but what about that top one percent? I actually think getting rid of it would do a lot of good for the country overall. The deduction is an incentive to borrow more than they should and buy more house than they would otherwise. It is also behind some of the crazy housing prices in certain areas.
    A 20-year gradual phase out would be good. An instantaneous change would cause the great recession 2: electric bugaboo.

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Unfortunately, given the current political and social climate, yes. However, nothing is set in concrete and I pray that one day attitudes will change.
    Until we have a society that values life from conception through birth until a natural (even if unforeseen) death, pro-life people are too often some of the biggest hypocrites walking the face of the Earth. In fact the movement shamefully has referred itself as the "pro-LIFE" movement when it is basically nothing but a pro-BIRTH movement. Given their way, ALL support before and after the moment of birth would be done away with. Sheesh, they talk about the moment of conception being the important demarcation in time, when it is really the moment of birth.

  12. #132
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Unfortunately, given the current political and social climate, yes. However, nothing is set in concrete and I pray that one day attitudes will change.
    Current Democratic Party positions reduce the number of abortions far more than current Republican positions. Facts are facts.
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    The deduction is an incentive to borrow more than they should and buy more house than they would otherwise. It is also behind some of the crazy housing prices in certain areas.
    Is the empirical evidence to suggest this? I ask because I do not know. It seems that buying more house than you can afford is a more recent occurrence and and the affordability of housing can be tied to a lot more than just a mortgage interest deduction. Was housing out of the reach of most people in our urban areas in 1960 or 1970? You could deduct your interest then, too.

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post

    He's insane. Any plan kills 10 million innocent people in South Korea alone in the first week.
    Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
    Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    Do many of the super rich actually have mortgages? I know a lot of people from 90-99 do but what about that top one percent? I actually think getting rid of it would do a lot of good for the country overall. The deduction is an incentive to borrow more than they should and buy more house than they would otherwise. It is also behind some of the crazy housing prices in certain areas.
    I remember the days when you saved your money and bought within your means... of course now, there's insane borrowing and running up of debts...
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    May 14th, 2011, 11:00 PM ET: 2147483647

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I'm not happy about it either, but Flag is correct (cue the Twilight Zone music!).
    Quote Originally Posted by French Rage View Post
    Ahh crap I agree exactly with what FlagDude said.
    Quote Originally Posted by jericho on rpitv's chat
    I never thought I would say this, but you are right.
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    And yet, even if Flaggy is complete tinfoil hat, every day it looks closer and closer to the truth.
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    So flaggy: you win.

  16. #136
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...alation-241526

    **** me...


    Also, didn't this ******* say he wasn't going to reveal his plans?
    It's so nice that Trump thinks it's all just a game of Risk.

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
    Is the empirical evidence to suggest this? I ask because I do not know. It seems that buying more house than you can afford is a more recent occurrence and and the affordability of housing can be tied to a lot more than just a mortgage interest deduction. Was housing out of the reach of most people in our urban areas in 1960 or 1970? You could deduct your interest then, too.
    It's the same argument that could be applied to the cost of tuition. The object of the seller is to maximize the amount of money they can get from a buyer. Anyone who's sold something in their lives, whether it's a house, something on eBay or Craigslist, whatever it may be, will tell you this. Obviously a buyer then makes a "bid" on the item, and eventually the buyer and seller come to an agreement on a price. When there is a means for buyers to gain extra money (whether by debt or subsidy), the seller is going to take advantage of that and raise the price because they know they can get it.

    Credit has also became a lot more "advertised" and loose in the 80's, and the options even more so with the repeal of Glass-Steagall in the early-to-mid-90's. With some time for the market to adjust to these "openings", of course prices have been on the rise. To your specific point about interest deduction, perhaps we need to look at if there was any sort of rise in the decade or so after it was introduced. I do believe the credit loosening was the real driving factor.
    It was an honor to present your colors, RPI. Let's Go 'TUTE!
    May 14th, 2011, 11:00 PM ET: 2147483647

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I'm not happy about it either, but Flag is correct (cue the Twilight Zone music!).
    Quote Originally Posted by French Rage View Post
    Ahh crap I agree exactly with what FlagDude said.
    Quote Originally Posted by jericho on rpitv's chat
    I never thought I would say this, but you are right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    And yet, even if Flaggy is complete tinfoil hat, every day it looks closer and closer to the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by burd View Post
    So flaggy: you win.

  18. #138
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post



    Translation: "The generals told me we have a plan; I trust them - haven't read it! Now, you said my ball went out of bounds? Yeah, don't count that shot."
    Is this going to turn out like the carrier fleet that was steaming towards NK at that very moment but was actually passing near Papua/New Guinea and pointed towards western Australia?
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Unfortunately, given the current political and social climate, yes. However, nothing is set in concrete and I pray that one day attitudes will change.
    A bit interesting how the question changes from "Should we actually do it?" to "Should it be an option?". The latter seems quite authoritarian.
    It was an honor to present your colors, RPI. Let's Go 'TUTE!
    May 14th, 2011, 11:00 PM ET: 2147483647

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I'm not happy about it either, but Flag is correct (cue the Twilight Zone music!).
    Quote Originally Posted by French Rage View Post
    Ahh crap I agree exactly with what FlagDude said.
    Quote Originally Posted by jericho on rpitv's chat
    I never thought I would say this, but you are right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    And yet, even if Flaggy is complete tinfoil hat, every day it looks closer and closer to the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by burd View Post
    So flaggy: you win.

  20. #140
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Also regarding gun control, Dems need to be clear about exactly what they want to do, because otherwise you leave yourself open to charges of taking people's guns and other such nonsense.

    So, were I running the DNC or running for Prez or whatever, my proposal would be this: I'd have one gun law, and only one gun law, that I'd push for whatever term I'd be running for. That 1 law would be to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill people and people under surveillance for terrorism. Simple, concise, and for once you'd put NRA loons on the defensive when they opposed this.

    How would this work? People under a terrorism watch would not be notified obviously, but law enforcement would obtain court order to suspend their right to own firearms and put them in the Brady bill database. Mentally ill people would not go through a court order but would be informed (or their guardian) that their doctor had flagged them also in the database. If they happen to be cured or get better at a later date, or if somebody under surveillance turns out to be harmless, they would get their access back.

    I personally would like stricter gun control, but also realize Dems need to build up some credibility on this issue while playing offense against the gun lobby. "Why do you want guns in the hands of terrorists or people hearing voices" is a question that should be asked instead of "why do you done support da gubmit comin' into our homes and a takin' our gunz?"

    Kep regarding economic liberalism its not a disagreement but more of a general problem in the country that to date has no solution. Most of us agree that the rich should in fact pay more taxes. We also agree that the revenue from said taxes should be transferred to people on the lower end of the income ladder in the form of increased health coverage and college tuition for example. So far so good and Dems should absolutely run on not universal single payer but expanded Medicaid and Medicare which recent events have proven are extremely popular even amongst righty voters.

    However, all of this will not actually make a wide swath of the country, from Pennsylvania down to Georgia across to Arizona and up to Montana and back across the Great Lakes to western NY, prosperous. It'll allow people to tread water better which is certainly worthwhile, but while we're telling people they'd be worse off without us, not exactly a winning message, Republicans are telling the same people if you help us kick out all illegal immigrants you'll get your jobs back. Well, once resonates a lot more than the other.

    I, nor Hillary, nor Bernie, nor Trump, nor anybody else has a solution to bring back 50's era living standards to the Rust Belt, the Prairies, rural New England, etc. I would hope these people realize they're being played for suckers, but my solution to their plight isn't a campaign friendly one - leave and move to where the jobs are!
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