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Thread: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    I was watching a bit of news this morning before the football started and from the clips they showed it looked more like the counter protestors were the ones doing the attacking. It's going to be interesting to see where the story goes this week. If you remember last summer a bunch of England fans were blamed for causing trouble in Marseille during the Euro's, but it was actually Russian soldiers who were behind all the trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if this story takes a similar turn. I still think they shouldn't have allowed any of this to go on.
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    So now there are three people dead in Charlottesville.
    Based on NPR I think the other two were the state troopers who were in the helicopter crash. Other than quoting the governor's remarks about how the two troopers were close friends of the governor's family, no word on what happened or why the helicopter crashed. A witness was quoted as saying pieces of the helicopter started to break off as it fell from the sky. Knowing that many of the racist protesters were armed, one of the things that crossed my mind was is it possible the helicopter was attacked?

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    Oh that our supposed Christian president would have comments similar to what Pastor Pavlovitz made. Or condemned the ACTUAL injuries resulting from the violence perpetuated by the racists in Charlottesville in the same no questions about it tone of Navy veteran Wright as he condemns things that have yet to cause any harm to us or our allies.

    But he won't. And there is only one logical reason why. Politicians are generally pragmatic people. What they do is usually with one thought in mind, and that thought is reelection. trump won't attack the racists in his base in any sort of an actual full-throated way because they make up the lion's share of his supporters. It's the only conclusion you can draw unless you want to be willfully blinded to the truth.

    We can't attack and solve the problem of bigotry and racism unless we admit the extent of it. And the extent of it is a majority of trump's supporters and voters -- and a majority of the right in America today it sadly needs to be said -- have the same beliefs that were on display by the KKK, Nazis and skinheads in Virginia yesterday. This problem will not go away if we ignore it, I think all can agree. But it will not go away if we all underplay it either. This not just a few of the wackiest republicans out there. This is not just a handful of people who actually walk around in a hood or sport a Hitler mustache and jack boots. trump simply can't disavow these people because these people elected him president.

    If you call yourself a conservative, or a republican, or espouse right leaning ideas and rhetoric and you DON'T put all of your efforts into disavowing the racism in your midst and isolating it, rooting it out and destroying it, you are not just a part of the problem, you ARE the problem. trump won't do it because he welcomes it and relies on it. He owes his victory to it. The rest of you though, what are you getting out of it?

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    I was watching a bit of news this morning before the football started and from the clips they showed it looked more like the counter protestors were the ones doing the attacking. It's going to be interesting to see where the story goes this week. If you remember last summer a bunch of England fans were blamed for causing trouble in Marseille during the Euro's, but it was actually Russian soldiers who were behind all the trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if this story takes a similar turn. I still think they shouldn't have allowed any of this to go on.
    Exhibit A of how ideology works. A person supports an ideology, either actively and aggressively or tacitly and passively. That movement results in a horrific crime -- say a murder. It is unequivocally the fault of the movement. Does the supporter pause and re-evaluate? No. He finds a rationalization so he can continue believing what he did before. He deflects. He never acknowledges or accepts responsibility.

    To operate in reality a brain must remain connected to reality so it can check the correspondence of its ideas with empirical data. The ideological brain wraps itself in its ideas so tightly it becomes cut off from reality. Whatever happens is perceived through that wrapping, so it's just checking the ideology against the ideology. That brain has become a closed system, and the ideology is no longer falsifiable.
    Last edited by Kepler; 08-13-2017 at 10:49 AM.
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Saw this on Facebook:

    "I bet if the counter-protesters didn't show up, nothing would happen."

    "I bet if she didn't wear such a short skirt, she wouldn't have gotten raped."

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
    If you call yourself a conservative, or a republican, or espouse right leaning ideas and rhetoric and you DON'T put all of your efforts into disavowing the racism in your midst and isolating it, rooting it out and destroying it, you are not just a part of the problem, you ARE the problem. trump won't do it because he welcomes it and relies on it. He owes his victory to it. The rest of you though, what are you getting out of it?
    I was going to reply to your earlier post, but am too lazy to go back 2 pages.

    The issue, to me, is that there are a lot of conservative/republicans that DO think this thinking is correct. A guy at work tells me that if African Americans don't want to be pulled over at a much higher rate than whites, they should stop being criminals. I was dumbfounded by the assumption that they all deserved getting pulled over and treated badly because they were criminals. And this person claims to not be a racist.

    The only difference between a large chunk of the right and these guys is one is proud to be racist and whatnot, the others are not ready to proclaim it. But they certainly agree.

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Exhibit A of how ideology works. A person supports an ideology, either actively and aggressively or tacitly and passively. That movement results in a horrific crime -- say a murder. It is unequivocally the fault of the movement. Does the supporter pause and re-evaluate? No. He finds a rationalization so he can continue believing what he did before. He deflects. He never acknowledges or accepts responsibility.

    To operate in reality a brain being must remain connected to reality so it can check the correspondence of its ideas with empirical data. The ideological brain wraps itself in its ideas so tightly it becomes cut off from reality. Whatever happens is perceived through that wrapping, so it's just checking the ideology against the ideology. That brain has become a closed system, and the ideology is no longer falsifiable.
    One of us is certainly guilty of what you suggest. I wasn't defending the ideology one tiny bit. It is disgusting, awful, whatever adjective you want to use. If you re-read my post I even said the event shouldn't have been allowed to take place, as none of these white supremacy things should.

    None of that would excuse counter protestors starting violence though. We'll find out in the coming days exactly what took place. The guy who ran over the poor girl hopefully has the book thrown at him and it sounds like he has already been charged with murder. I hope whoever was behind the general violence and chaos is held responsible, regardless of ideology. You can like/dislike whatever ideologies you want, but it should be pretty obvious we need less racial tension in this country if we are ever going to move forward. And a lot of that is on white people to treat other groups better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    One of us is certainly guilty of what you suggest. I wasn't defending the ideology one tiny bit. It is disgusting, awful, whatever adjective you want to use. If you re-read my post I even said the event shouldn't have been allowed to take place, as none of these white supremacy things should.

    None of that would excuse counter protestors starting violence though. We'll find out in the coming days exactly what took place. The guy who ran over the poor girl hopefully has the book thrown at him and it sounds like he has already been charged with murder. I hope whoever was behind the general violence and chaos is held responsible, regardless of ideology. You can like/dislike whatever ideologies you want, but it should be pretty obvious we need less racial tension in this country if we are ever going to move forward. And a lot of that is on white people to treat other groups better.
    You spent 90% of your post driveling about how the left was likely behind all the violence. Then threw in a pathetic "wish this didn't happen" line, just like your fuhrer leader yesterday with his "all sides" bs.

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    I was watching a bit of news this morning before the football started and from the clips they showed it looked more like the counter protestors were the ones doing the attacking. It's going to be interesting to see where the story goes this week. If you remember last summer a bunch of England fans were blamed for causing trouble in Marseille during the Euro's, but it was actually Russian soldiers who were behind all the trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if this story takes a similar turn. I still think they shouldn't have allowed any of this to go on.
    Concern troll is concerned.

    It was a neo-Nazi who committed the murder that happened. There is also video circulating of neo-Nazis beating a black man with baseball bats. The, "He started it!" defense didn't work in 3rd grade, and it won't work here.
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    Concern troll is concerned.

    It was a neo-Nazi who committed the murder that happened. There is also video circulating of neo-Nazis beating a black man with baseball bats. The, "He started it!" defense didn't work in 3rd grade, and it won't work here.
    Jail 'em, hang 'em, whatever. I'm not trying in any way to defend the white supremacists.
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Unless the person espousing hatred and bigotry is actually committing or encouraging violence, I would hope most of us feel that the right to free speech must be upheld. But one thing we don't need to do is give them more airtime.

    Let Drew and the others like him have their say. I'm confident those here who peddle that crap -- and we know who they are -- are not committing violent acts or encouraging others to commit them. But perhaps if we don't give additional life to their ridiculous false equivalencies and rationalizations, those ideas won't get the additional oxygen that gives them wings.

    Flaggy I have on ignore because he is clearly either just a brilliant troll (and thus not worth our time) or he is disturbed and mentally ill (and while that's sad, also not worth our time and none of us are qualified to deal with that and help the poor schmuck over the internet). But the others who trade in willful blindness and can't come to grip with the fact their side bares the burden of responsibility here, they occasionally post a thoughtful, open minded message and I think we do ourselves a disservice if we cut them off.

    So post away, I say. I'll even continue to read what they have to say. But I won't respond or acknowledge another attempt to rationalize trump because "the other side does it too" or "I didn't actually vote for the guy" or anything else along those lines.

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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
    Unless the person espousing hatred and bigotry is actually committing or encouraging violence, I would hope most of us feel that the right to free speech must be upheld. But one thing we don't need to do is give them more airtime.
    This part. All of this part.
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    I was watching a bit of news this morning before the football started and from the clips they showed it looked more like the counter protestors were the ones doing the attacking. It's going to be interesting to see where the story goes this week. If you remember last summer a bunch of England fans were blamed for causing trouble in Marseille during the Euro's, but it was actually Russian soldiers who were behind all the trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if this story takes a similar turn. I still think they shouldn't have allowed any of this to go on.
    Yeah I am sure the Black Guy who was beaten by like 3 Nazis with clubs while they yelled "Die N*****" was totally at fault for it. And we know the anti-protesters were surely responsible for the guy who drove his car through them. They were asking for it.

    Even if you assume they were getting aggressive they arent responsible for nutjob racist tools trying to kill them in response.
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    Concern troll is concerned.

    It was a neo-Nazi who committed the murder that happened. There is also video circulating of neo-Nazis beating a black man with baseball bats. The, "He started it!" defense didn't work in 3rd grade, and it won't work here.
    I posted the article with pictures last night. (it is on page two now)
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    One of us is certainly guilty of what you suggest.
    Yes. He certainly is.

    It's already begun on all the RW sites -- this is the fault of the counter-protesters, it's the fault of "Obama who divided this country" (?), and of course that's not counting the Flaggy Bannon/Jones sites and their "false flag with actors to shut down our freedumbs."

    Your position is clear from your posts. Now this, where you play the Fox/Trump concern "both sides do it" game. Be gone.
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Yes. He certainly is.

    It's already begun on all the RW sites -- this is the fault of the counter-protesters, it's the fault of "Obama who divided this country" (?), and of course that's not counting the Flaggy Bannon/Jones sites and their "false flag with actors to shut down our freedumbs."

    Your position is clear from your posts. Now this, where you play the Fox/Trump concern "both sides do it" game. Be gone.
    I've posted this a few times today, and I'm not sure why it is so difficult to understand, but I'm not trying to absolve the white supremacists of blame. They're despicable and never should have been allowed to even have the event in the first blame. They deserve tons of blame, scorn, and any other bad thing that can go their way. None of that however would let people who were there solely to provoke violence off the hook. I'm not trying to claim all the counter protestors were up to no good either, I'm sure the vast majority were there for all the right reasons. Is any of this not clear now? Can you not see that there could be despicable people on both sides of the fence?
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    I've posted this a few times today, and I'm not sure why it is so difficult to understand, but I'm not trying to absolve the white supremacists of blame. They're despicable and never should have been allowed to even have the event in the first blame. They deserve tons of blame, scorn, and any other bad thing that can go their way. None of that however would let people who were there solely to provoke violence off the hook. I'm not trying to claim all the counter protestors were up to no good either, I'm sure the vast majority were there for all the right reasons. Is any of this not clear now? Can you not see that there could be despicable people on both sides of the fence?
    An act of domestic terrorism occurred yesterday, in which a woman was murdered, and your response to it was, "Hey remember the Euros where it turned out it was actually the other guys' fault?"

    So no, it's not clear. And adding a one sentence disclaimer to the end of every post to try to be on both sides doesn't make it any clearer.
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    I've posted this a few times today, and I'm not sure why it is so difficult to understand, but I'm not trying to absolve the white supremacists of blame. They're despicable and never should have been allowed to even have the event in the first blame. They deserve tons of blame, scorn, and any other bad thing that can go their way. None of that however would let people who were there solely to provoke violence off the hook. I'm not trying to claim all the counter protestors were up to no good either, I'm sure the vast majority were there for all the right reasons. Is any of this not clear now? Can you not see that there could be despicable people on both sides of the fence?
    You're basically attempting to equate a few counter-protesters who turned spray cans into weak flamethrowers and torched a few Nazi & Confederate flags, with neo-Nazis committing assault with a weapon, and murder.
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    I understand what Drew is saying, and like Fade said, it's a bad comparison. As many here have said, words are one thing. Actions are another.
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    Re: POTUS 45.16 - If Never Forgotten, One Would ALWAYS Remember Something.

    Clearly terrorism like yesterday's armed "protest" isn't free speech, and needs to be stopped. By "the authorities" and all our condemnation.
    But... modernity needs to be open to converts also. I'm uncomfortable with the way twitter is yelling **** at nearly every conservative who openly speaks out against racism. Decency is not a "right" granted only to the right "kind of people" who have somehow earned credibility. There are decent conservatives looking for the correct way forward and they should be supported. Hate cannot drive out hate. You guys see the pic of the black cop guarding the confederates yesterday? That pic said a lot. Most of the child Nazis probably need a hug more than anything.

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