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Thread: World Soccer XXVIII: Campeones de NorteAmérica.

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    Re: World Soccer XXVIII: Campeones de NorteAmérica.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaizeRage View Post
    Out of curiosity, what would the consequences be? College hockey(even MN high school hockey) works outside of USA Hockey, which is more centralized like you want, and there don't seem to be any major consequences.
    The other thing is hockey is pay to play, and that doesn't seem to hurt our competitiveness.
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    Re: World Soccer XXVIII: Campeones de NorteAmérica.

    https://i.imgur.com/05Fxuis.png.

    Here's the biggest problem right now, the US had 5 players aged 25-29 on the roster. An entire generation of players failed to materialize and it ultimately cost us a World Cup.

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    Re: World Soccer XXVIII: Campeones de NorteAmérica.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
    I used to say "playing regular minutes in MLS is better than not playing at all at Bayern/Roma/Wherever". Now I'm not so sure.

    Maybe that's only true for players who still need to develop with game time, and not nearly as true for guys who are already developed, in their mid-to-late 20s, and need the competition of a high end team's training?
    I think that's pretty accurate though I don't think this team necessarily does enough with the talent it has either. And while I don't know a ton about US soccer or soccer in general (haven't followed it for a while) I will say that there being curious roster decisions in terms of game day decisions and roster assembly doesn't shock me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    https://i.imgur.com/05Fxuis.png.

    Here's the biggest problem right now, the US had 5 players aged 25-29 on the roster. An entire generation of players failed to materialize and it ultimately cost us a World Cup.
    Is it the players didn't materialize, or the boys club locked them out by sticking with the old guard past their prime?

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    Re: World Soccer XXVIII: Campeones de NorteAmérica.

    Who is Sunil Gulati's boss? A board?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    The biggest consequence would be players being ineligible for anything FIFA, potentially permanently. And that would be what I'd push for, play college soccer and you're permanently ineligible for everything, no National Teams, no pro soccer. It's a drastic step but soccer in this country needs them.
    The women would emphatically disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    The women would emphatically disagree.
    The Women aren't facing the same problems (yet) because the rest of the world only started caring about Women's soccer 5 years ago. The seeds have already been planted and have started growing for their demise, look at the Olympics, they've relied wholly on raw athleticism to win for decades and faced with the task of breaking down well organized, tactically competent team they failed miserably. Don't look know but the Dutch just won the Women's Euros and England and France just demolished us at home in friendlies. The Women's game definitely has the same problems but it's being masked by indifference.

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    Re: World Soccer XXVIII: Campeones de NorteAmérica.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    The biggest consequence would be players being ineligible for anything FIFA, potentially permanently. And that would be what I'd push for, play college soccer and you're permanently ineligible for everything, no National Teams, no pro soccer. It's a drastic step but soccer in this country needs them.
    Does the U.S have that many 18 year old kids who choose college over going pro that would have even been close to making this team?

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    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    Is it the players didn't materialize, or the boys club locked them out by sticking with the old guard past their prime?
    Didn't materialize, remember this was a generation of players that missed two Olympics, a U-20, and U-17 World Cup. A major reason why players like Bradley stuck around was because there was nobody good enough to replace them. Think of notable players right now between 25-29 that could replace guys like Bradley.

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    Re: World Soccer XXVIII: Campeones de NorteAmérica.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    The Women aren't facing the same problems (yet) because the rest of the world only started caring about Women's soccer 5 years ago. The seeds have already been planted and have started growing for their demise, look at the Olympics, they've relied wholly on raw athleticism to win for decades and faced with the task of breaking down well organized, tactically competent team they failed miserably. Don't look know but the Dutch just won the Women's Euros and England and France just demolished us at home in friendlies. The Women's game definitely has the same problems but it's being masked by indifference.
    The problem is fundamentally the same from a development standpoint on both sides of the ball. There is no skill development at younger ages. They aren't taught to see teammates and how to use them. Because of that, players don't see passes/runs until it's too late. On the Men's side, compare Bradley to Pulisic. That's a basic comparison of development styles.

    That same bird is coming home to roost on the Women's side of things and Europe will be running us over in short order. It all comes back to development at 14/15 and younger.
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    Re: World Soccer XXVIII: Campeones de NorteAmérica.

    Quote Originally Posted by cF[Authentic] View Post
    Does the U.S have that many 18 year old kids who choose college over going pro that would have even been close to making this team?
    NCAA does not develop players at all... If you want to make it on the National team, you need to be playing in Europe as a teen/early 20's, not in the NCAA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cF[Authentic] View Post
    Does the U.S have that many 18 year old kids who choose college over going pro that would have even been close to making this team?
    No, that's not the issue. The issue is the youth system right now is designed as a college scholarship factory. Nearly everything, outside of a few clubs in the DA system, is designed to produce kids for college soccer NOT professional soccer. Why? Because Women's professional soccer is non-existent and our soccer culture disrespects our National league on the Men's side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaceBoarder View Post
    NCAA does not develop players at all... If you want to make it on the National team, you need to be playing in Europe as a teen/early 20's, not in the NCAA.
    This. THIS! right here is part of the problem. A kid in their teens/early 20s can be playing in MLS and be absolutely in great shape for the future. It's this disrespect FOR OUR OWN *ING LEAGUE that's part of the problem. So long as folks are willing to wake up at the crack of dawn to watch EPL but can't be bothered to watch an MLS game in the afternoon the game is this country will go nowhere, because every dime the TV networks give to the EPL and Bundesliga is a dime NOT going to soccer in the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    Is it the players didn't materialize, or the boys club locked them out by sticking with the old guard past their prime?
    Why not both? JJAK is right on with the dearth of talent, but also…

    There are some excellent players in Germany right now that barely saw call ups in the Hex. Sure, Johansson and Brooks were injured, but why are we leaving Fabian Johnson out? Tim Chandler?

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    Re: World Soccer XXVIII: Campeones de NorteAmérica.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaceBoarder View Post
    NCAA does not develop players at all... If you want to make it on the National team, you need to be playing in Europe as a teen/early 20's, not in the NCAA.
    It sounds like college soccer is where college hockey was in 1965. Is there a systemic reason to doubt that 20-30 years down the line college soccer won't rival European development in the way college hockey came to rival the Major Juniors?

    What drove the improvement of college hockey and how can we do the same with college soccer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
    Why not both? JJAK is right on with the dearth of talent, but also…

    There are some excellent players in Germany right now that barely saw call ups in the Hex. Sure, Johansson and Brooks were injured, but why are we leaving Fabian Johnson out? Tim Chandler?
    Oh Bruce definitely deserves plenty of blame for questionable call ups. FabJo should've been on the roster but Tim Chandler has been terrible for the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    It sounds like college soccer is where college hockey was in 1965. Is there a systemic reason to doubt that 20-30 years down the line college soccer won't rival European development in the way college hockey came to rival the Major Juniors?

    What drove the improvement of college hockey and how can we do the same with college soccer?
    Because soccer is not hockey. Playing in the NHL at 16 is unheard of, and illegal now, but common in soccer.

    Frankly, college soccer needs to be completely divorced from the NCAA and run by the USSF. Basically say, "you're not on scholarship, you're on four year professional contract." Force the programs into the system, FIFA rules, longer seasons, more training, force into the US Open Cup, coaching licensing etc. Wanna leave early? Club has to pay a transfer fee. Make it actual soccer, not a scam like the rest of college sports.

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    Re: World Soccer XXVIII: Campeones de NorteAmérica.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    This. THIS! right here is part of the problem. A kid in their teens/early 20s can be playing in MLS and be absolutely in great shape for the future. It's this disrespect FOR OUR OWN *ING LEAGUE that's part of the problem. So long as folks are willing to wake up at the crack of dawn to watch EPL but can't be bothered to watch an MLS game in the afternoon the game is this country will go nowhere, because every dime the TV networks give to the EPL and Bundesliga is a dime NOT going to soccer in the US.
    The problem is that there is no development plan to funnel kids into MLS. Any young kid that is talented is going to go over to Europe as a teen and play on development squads over there till they crack the top tier.

    How do we keep a talented 14/15 year old stateside and develop them into an international player? That's where the gap is. There is no 2nd or 3rd tier option here in North America. That is what is killing MLS. MLS can absolutely develop players, but those players need to be at a certain level to start. If they are below that, they get thrown in and eaten alive like Freddy Adu.

    MLS is a great farm, but seedlings get trampled and killed there. They need a nursery with protection to survive that critical 1st couple of years until they can take the perils of the big farm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Because soccer is not hockey. Playing in the NHL at 16 is unheard of, and illegal now, but common in soccer.

    Frankly, college soccer needs to be completely divorced from the NCAA and run by the USSF. Basically say, "you're not on scholarship, you're on four year professional contract." Force the programs into the system, FIFA rules, longer seasons, more training, force into the US Open Cup, coaching licensing etc. Wanna leave early? Club has to pay a transfer fee. Make it actual soccer, not a scam like the rest of college sports.
    I think we're on the same page here. It's the 2nd/3rd tier of development that is the problem.
    Last edited by RaceBoarder; 10-11-2017 at 12:52 PM.
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    Re: World Soccer XXVIII: Campeones de NorteAmérica.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Because soccer is not hockey. Playing in the NHL at 16 is unheard of, and illegal now, but common in soccer.

    Frankly, college soccer needs to be completely divorced from the NCAA and run by the USSF. Basically say, "you're not on scholarship, you're on four year professional contract." Force the programs into the system, FIFA rules, longer seasons, more training, force into the US Open Cup, coaching licensing etc. Wanna leave early? Club has to pay a transfer fee. Make it actual soccer, not a scam like the rest of college sports.
    Is that how college gymnastics works? Honest question. They seem to produce globally competitive athletes in a sport where you're over the hill at 24. How do the other powers produce their gymnasts? Maybe that is the more apt model?

    Football will be extinct in 20 years. All those cornerbacks and running backs are going to have to go somewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaceBoarder View Post
    The problem is that there is no development plan to funnel kids into MLS. Any young kid that is talented is going to go over to Europe as a teen and play on development squads over there till they crack the top tier.

    How do we keep a talented 14/15 year old stateside and develop them into an international player? That's where the gap is. There is no 2nd or 3rd tier option here in North America. That is what is killing MLS. MLS can absolutely develop players, but those players need to be at a certain level to start. If they are below that, they get thrown in and eaten alive like Freddy Adu.

    MLS is a great farm, but seedlings get trampled and killed there. They need a nursery with protection to survive that critical 1st couple of years until they can take the perils of the big farm.
    Unless that kid has access to an EU passport they aren't leaving the US, FIFA prohibits youth players from moving abroad until they're 18.

    And there is a place for kids to play professionally at a young age, the x-2 teams that MLS has in the USL, Seattle, Portland, KC, Red Bulls etc. all have them. Know why kids don't sign into those teams? Because they'll lose their precious college scholarship if they do and parents steer them away.

    The system is there, it's our culture that is killing this game.

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