UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

[UNHSince1969]

Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

How are we looking on the injury front for Friday night? I know lots have been out but not sure of their status near-term!

[HockeyRef]

How are we looking on the injury front for Friday night? I know lots have been out but not sure of their status near-term!

Normally on Wednesdays Coach U has a presser...maybe he divulges that info? At the very least I'm thinking Vela out of the four...maybe CHKell (Kelleher?)

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

Didn't he score the winning goal 40 seconds into OT in the 1977 East Regional semi-finals in that wild 10-9 win over Cornell at the Garden? (I should know this because I was there, but I seem to always confuse him with someone else).

As an aside to anyone who left after that game, the second game was almost as good. BU scored three in the last five minutes to beat Dave Taylor's Clarkson team, 6-5 in the other semi. And we all know who won the final the next night...

(was it "unfair" for me to answer because I'm not a young'un?) It doesn't matter anyway, because anyone can just look it up on the internet now...

I was there as well. Our group left the BU Clarkson game with about five or six minutes to go to head for Chinatown and a celebratory feast. Never forget my buddy Mike yelling out of his car window while we were stuck in traffic that BU had won. Also should be noted that two years later, in the ECAC final vs. Dartmouth, Bob Gould, #17, scored at 17:17 of the third period to give UNH its only ECAC championship. BG was a great player, pretty intense, on some great teams. He would be around 60 today. Believe he is still teaching high school back in his home town of Petrolia, ONT.

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

Good grief! Did you say soft-spot or blind spot? Bobby Gould was a great player, who had a great moment, at UNH and had a nice NHL career. JVR is on another level, has had a FAR more successful professional career and calling him a third liner indicates a clear agenda. There's a big difference between not a HOF and the scrubby bust you're constantly trying to turn him into. Lots of top picks don't end up in the HOF and still turn in well above average careers...

JVR has already scored 29 more NHL goals than Gould in 151 fewer games played (in a era of much lower scoring games) and has been a top-six forward since walking into the league at 20 years old.

JVRs biggest issue has been health and missed games. Yet, he ranks sixth in his draft class in goals scored, despite ranking only tenth in games played. He has had three seasons cut in half due to injury, missing 117 games as a result. Based on his pace in each season, those injuries cost him 38 more goals and 76 more points. 38 more goals would put him fourth in his draft class with 212. Is he a bust at pick #2 because Benn (from out of nowhere) and Paccioretty have surpassed his production? Not in any objective reality...

Without injuries he would currently be on pace for his 7TH 20+ goal season and third 30+ goal campaign (compared to Gould's 3 and 0) in nine seasons. This season he is on pace for 41 goals...

Yes, injuries happen - But raw and extrapolated numbers confirm that JVR is (by far) the most prolific NHL goal and point scorer in UNH history, both in total and in GPG. Bobby Gould is not close even now, let alone when JVRs career is done. With good health, he will surpass the career length of all the others in due time. He has also been 'elite' enough to represent the US in the Olympic Games...

It's sad that so many hold ill feelings towards JVR because they think he owed them more production while at UNH and made it look easy and effortless while playing there (Note - that's what dominant players naturally do! See Gildon. See Poturalski. See all the other players you hate). If JVR stays four years at UNH he is the team's fourth all-time 200 point career scorer (and potentially its second Hobey Baker winner).

As is, he scored 74 points in two seasons as an 18/19 year old. Only three other UNH forwards have scored as many points in their first two seasons, since 1999, and that would be Haydar (102), Collins (75) and (brace yourself Chuck!) Poturalski (81). Haydar had the benefit of playing with a SR Krog during his FR season. Collins played with SR Haydar in his first year. Poturalski was a 20 year old FR. JVR was the leader of his line both years (primarily Pollostrone and Dries as a FR and Sislo, Leblanc as a SO, if I recall correctly). Not enough?!

Since I watched them both, I'd say that Gould had the better collegiate career, JVR the better pro one. Perhaps if JVR had spent four years at UNH he would have surpassed Gould, although BG was a big game player and I never got the sense that JVR was. And please don't overlook the fact that JVR was the second pick in the draft. Because of it he was afforded opportunities at the pro level that Gould, who was a lowly draft pick in the first wave of college players who reached the NHL, would never have dreamed of. Bottom line for me is that I appreciated JVR's skills but I loved Gould's grit and sense of the big time moment.

[HockeyRef]

How are we looking on the injury front for Friday night? I know lots have been out but not sure of their status near-term!

According to our good friend C-H-C on Twitter coach Umile reports Marcus Vela and Charlie Kelleher will skate Friday. BvR uncertain. Shane Eiserman still out and joining him with an injury is Joe Sacco.

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

Since I watched them both, I'd say that Gould had the better collegiate career, JVR the better pro one. Perhaps if JVR had spent four years at UNH he would have surpassed Gould, although BG was a big game player and I never got the sense that JVR was. And please don't overlook the fact that JVR was the second pick in the draft. Because of it he was afforded opportunities at the pro level that Gould, who was a lowly draft pick in the first wave of college players who reached the NHL, would never have dreamed of. Bottom line for me is that I appreciated JVR's skills but I loved Gould's grit and sense of the big time moment.

This sounds like an excellent assessment to me. I am really sorry that I missed seeing all of these great UNH players in the mid- to late-70s, including Bobby Gould. I did catch a couple of post-season games on TV from Colorado, but that was about it.

[Aerman]

Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

Back to Snively's list ... how many seasons did Brick play?

[HockeyRef]

Back to Snively's list ... how many seasons did Brick play?

3

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

I was there as well. Our group left the BU Clarkson game with about five or six minutes to go to head for Chinatown and a celebratory feast. Never forget my buddy Mike yelling out of his car window while we were stuck in traffic that BU had won. Also should be noted that two years later, in the ECAC final vs. Dartmouth, Bob Gould, #17, scored at 17:17 of the third period to give UNH its only ECAC championship. BG was a great player, pretty intense, on some great teams. He would be around 60 today. Believe he is still teaching high school back in his home town of Petrolia, ONT.

Since I watched them both, I'd say that Gould had the better collegiate career, JVR the better pro one. Perhaps if JVR had spent four years at UNH he would have surpassed Gould, although BG was a big game player and I never got the sense that JVR was. And please don't overlook the fact that JVR was the second pick in the draft. Because of it he was afforded opportunities at the pro level that Gould, who was a lowly draft pick in the first wave of college players who reached the NHL, would never have dreamed of. Bottom line for me is that I appreciated JVR's skills but I loved Gould's grit and sense of the big time moment.

Greg speaks for me on virtually all things pertaining to the Gould-JvR comparison. One can only wonder if a player of Gould's caliber could have been the difference in any of Coach Umile's truly close calls with greatness.

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

Good grief! Did you say soft-spot or blind spot? Bobby Gould was a great player, who had a great moment, at UNH and had a nice NHL career. JVR is on another level, has had a FAR more successful professional career and calling him a third liner indicates a clear agenda. There's a big difference between not a HOF and the scrubby bust you're constantly trying to turn him into. Lots of top picks don't end up in the HOF and still turn in well above average careers...

JVR has already scored 29 more NHL goals than Gould in 151 fewer games played (in a era of much lower scoring games) and has been a top-six forward since walking into the league at 20 years old.

JVRs biggest issue has been health and missed games. Yet, he ranks sixth in his draft class in goals scored, despite ranking only tenth in games played. He has had three seasons cut in half due to injury, missing 117 games as a result. Based on his pace in each season, those injuries cost him 38 more goals and 76 more points. 38 more goals would put him fourth in his draft class with 212. Is he a bust at pick #2 because Benn (from out of nowhere) and Paccioretty have surpassed his production? Not in any objective reality...

Without injuries he would currently be on pace for his 7TH 20+ goal season and third 30+ goal campaign (compared to Gould's 3 and 0) in nine seasons. This season he is on pace for 41 goals...

Yes, injuries happen - But raw and extrapolated numbers confirm that JVR is (by far) the most prolific NHL goal and point scorer in UNH history, both in total and in GPG. Bobby Gould is not close even now, let alone when JVRs career is done. With good health, he will surpass the career length of all the others in due time. He has also been 'elite' enough to represent the US in the Olympic Games...

It's sad that so many hold ill feelings towards JVR because they think he owed them more production while at UNH and made it look easy and effortless while playing there (Note - that's what dominant players naturally do! See Gildon. See Poturalski. See all the other players you hate). If JVR stays four years at UNH he is the team's fourth all-time 200 point career scorer (and potentially its second Hobey Baker winner).

As is, he scored 74 points in two seasons as an 18/19 year old. Only three other UNH forwards have scored as many points in their first two seasons, since 1999, and that would be Haydar (102), Collins (75) and (brace yourself Chuck!) Poturalski (81). Haydar had the benefit of playing with a SR Krog during his FR season. Collins played with SR Haydar in his first year. Poturalski was a 20 year old FR. JVR was the leader of his line both years (primarily Pollostrone and Dries as a FR and Sislo, Leblanc as a SO, if I recall correctly). Not enough?!

Use of the word "hate" is a bit of a stretch to describe my thoughts on JvR (or Poturalski, or pre-emptively Gildon, whom I've yet to come to any conclusions about, all of a month and a half into his UNH career - talk about agenda driven ). Just because I don't share your lofty opinions on which players you feel are deserving of your worship or adoration (two strong words, but I figured I'd turn it around a bit), doesn't mean I despise them.

And while it would be silly to argue that JvR hasn't been UNH's most successful player scoring-wise at the NHL level - he is - it would be equally silly to argue that JvR's NHL career to date hasn't been on the disappointing side. Just for kicks and giggles ... here's a link to the 2nd overall NHL draft picks for the last 35 or so seasons (up through 2013 anyways). Go ahead, focus in on the forwards drafted in the same draft slot as JvR over the last 25 or so seasons (including stud defensemen like Pronger, Doughty and Hedman), and tell me if you can come up with more than one (or maybe two?) forwards whose careers have been OR project to be less impressive than what we've seen out of JvR at the NHL level to date.

http://www.mynhldraft.com/added.php?...hl-draft-picks

You mentioned Poturalski in your post, and I've not mentioned him on here for months now. Did I miss something amazing he's done since he left UNH, other than sliding down the depth chart in Charlotte?

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

"UNH-Boston College Preview With BC Interruption"

[Dan]

Use of the word "hate" is a bit of a stretch to describe my thoughts on JvR (or Poturalski, or pre-emptively Gildon, whom I've yet to come to any conclusions about, all of a month and a half into his UNH career - talk about agenda driven ). Just because I don't share your lofty opinions on which players you feel are deserving of your worship or adoration (two strong words, but I figured I'd turn it around a bit), doesn't mean I despise them.

And while it would be silly to argue that JvR hasn't been UNH's most successful player scoring-wise at the NHL level - he is - it would be equally silly to argue that JvR's NHL career to date hasn't been on the disappointing side. Just for kicks and giggles ... here's a link to the 2nd overall NHL draft picks for the last 35 or so seasons (up through 2013 anyways). Go ahead, focus in on the forwards drafted in the same draft slot as JvR over the last 25 or so seasons (including stud defensemen like Pronger, Doughty and Hedman), and tell me if you can come up with more than one (or maybe two?) forwards whose careers have been OR project to be less impressive than what we've seen out of JvR at the NHL level to date.

http://www.mynhldraft.com/added.php?...hl-draft-picks

You mentioned Poturalski in your post, and I've not mentioned him on here for months now. Did I miss something amazing he's done since he left UNH, other than sliding down the depth chart in Charlotte?

Sorry, Chuck - you have a type, and your past statements and opinions speak for themselves. I also noticed you've - again - moved the goal posts of the argument from JVR is a third liner to his career is a now only a little disappointing...

I do, however, applaud you're attempt to do some research. I don't see a need to name names, because you're bias will disagree, but there are a number of players on that list who are/will be no more than JVRs equal by the end of his career.

More importantly, I simply point out that JVR can only be judged as a poor number 2 pick relative to his draft class - he was the second pick relative to his peers that summer. Not relative to Daniel Sedin. If he went in a better draft class he would have been picked later. Would you appreciate him then? In HIS draft class, he has been a very good number two pick. I've already proven that. The only forwards who have clearly been more successful than JVR are Kane (who went one) and Jamie Benn (who was picked in the sixth round)...

I did look a little deeper at your research, though, and In terms of goals per game by number two picks JVR already ranks 15th out of 24. So he's middle of the pack in scoring for number two picks all time - which is what he was drafted to do - and still in his prime. The only way one could be aware of JVRs career production and still push the idea that JVR is a third liner is if they have an agenda. Period.

You were one of JVRs loudest critics when he played at UNH, insinuating that he was lazy, selfish, a prima donna, etc. Head in the pros (exactly what you said about AP). You still harp on him, his UNH career and his current accomplishments nine years after he left UNH? Sure seems like there is some passionate distaste there...

I'll also take issue with Greg's idea that JVR has received preferential threatment that Gould didn't receive. JVRs draft status may have been the reason he got to the league immediately. It is his 20-30 goal pace in all but one season since that has earned him the respect and opportunity he has received ever since. Gould may have faced challenges getting into the league, but he played almost 700 games. I think the GMs and coaches knew exactly what they have/had and deployed each player accordingly. Haydar and Krog got screwed by being low/non draft picks. Bobby Gould did not.

JVR skates in a critical scoring role and as PP guy - who likely scores his 200th NHL goal this season - on any team in the league. Disappointed he's not a transcendent player? Fair. Labeling him as a bust, failure or third-liner? Not. And when you make baseless comments like that, without any evidence to back up your claim, I am absolutely calling you out. You are wrong. It is not ridiculous - with good health - to expect JVR to reach 350 career goals. And, again, in an era where scoring is down (as lamented by you), that would put him in the top 150 all-time. ANY team would sign up for that at #2 this summer...

If you want to make the argument that Gould eclipses JVRs UNH career, that's fair. It's probably true given his production and big moments, but it's ONLY true because he played four seasons to JVRs two.

Despite the different eras - Gould only outscored him by one over two seasons. Even though Gould played four seasons, both won a single league title and made two NCAA tournaments. Goulds teams made to FFs. JVR was a banked in BU goal and/or a Danny Dries suspension away from a FF of his own.

You can still take Gould and have a great argument, but If JVR stays at UNH he turns two more good, NCAA Tournament teams into elite-level contenders, likely eclipses 200 points and is probably a two-time AA and a favorite for the Hobey both seasons. Imagine him returning as a JR (Dries too?!) to play with Butler (53 pts that season) and Desimone (37). Or his senior year to play with Sislo (48) and Desimone (41), while Thompson (53) played with Moses (27)...

---

As for Poturalski - I bet you just looked at the stat line and got giddy - after a slow start, he has 4-2--6 in his last seven and 4 points in his last three. One more goal this season will give him six, which matches Steve Saviano's career AHL goal mark. Looks like Poturalski is back to his form of last season, which put him om pace to be one the better AHL scorers and knocking on the door of the next level. Tough break...

Do I despise the phenomenon that exists in the sports world that leads, say, a hockey fan to wish they had more hard-working players who score a handful of goals and think their team would be better off without the dynamic player who effortlessly scores 1.5-2 PPG? Absolutely, I do. See the, we need more Chris Miller and less Poturalski posts that made their way to this board late two seasons ago...

But, I don't worship any of these players Chuck - I look at what the numbers and production tell me and I'm objective. There are many times I've come here to post an opinion, looked at the numbers, and posted to opposite. You can prefer whatever players you want - but production is quantifiable. And after all, results are all that matter, right...?

[Greg Ambrose]

Dan, the last word for me on JVR vs. Gould is that, as a sophomore, Gould scored the winning goal in 2OT in the 10-9 semifinal vs, Cornell. My lasting memory of JVR as a sophomore in the playoffs is the regional final in Manchester vs. BU when he was late on the back check of the player who threw the pass to Colin Wilson for the winner. Gould would have been all over the guy, guaranteed.

[Dan]

Dan, the last word for me on JVR vs. Gould is that, as a sophomore, Gould scored the winning goal in 2OT in the 10-9 semifinal vs, Cornell. My lasting memory of JVR as a sophomore in the playoffs is the regional final in Manchester vs. BU when he was late on the back check of the player who threw the pass to Colin Wilson for the winner. Gould would have been all over the guy, guaranteed.

That's fine Greg - but you are certainly aware that you're comparing Gould at his best to JVR at his worst with this snapshot comparison. As I said, prefer whoever or whatever type you wish. I understand the sentimental factor as well. I'm not arguing to bash Gould, I'm arguing against unfair shots at JVR...

JVR came to UNH with through the roof unrealistic expectations. Anything less than 3 points per game wasn't good enough - and the assumption was he wasn't trying. That bothers me. Just look at the struggles of the BU teams loaded with JVRs. It's not a given that even the best 18 year olds, trying their hardest, can dominate college hockey. If his name was, say Trevor Smith, he would have been revered for his dominant sophomore campaign and two year career...

I doubt it's changed much from era to era - I'm sure there were many games where Ralph Cox blew it or was lazy on D and the fans left Snively wishing they had more 'character' guys like Paul Surdam. Then they'd be winners!

One notable point in your post, is that while Gould and JVR scored at the same rate as FR and SO, Gould did so in an era where games were played to 10-9 scores. As a sophomore his 49 points ranked him sixth on just his team alone!! It was All-star game hockey with stand-up goalies; hardly comprable...

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

I'm just going to group some of Dan's comments together, for sake of responding in a more linear fashion ...

Sorry, Chuck - you have a type, and your past statements and opinions speak for themselves. I also noticed you've - again - moved the goal posts of the argument from JVR is a third liner to his career is a now only a little disappointing...

You were one of JVRs loudest critics when he played at UNH, insinuating that he was lazy, selfish, a prima donna, etc. You still harp on him, his UNH career and his current accomplishments nine years after he left UNH? Sure seems like there is some passionate distaste there...

So here's the funny thing ... JvR's two years at UNH overlapped with my least active posting period EVER on USCHO. I know that for a fact since I know what I was doing in my real life way back when - as opposed to relying upon your wisps of imagination and "insinuation". No, I've never claimed to be a huge fan of JvR, and at one time or another I've chimed in with observations that probably hit on issues like his work rate in the defensive end, and whether or not he was playing up to his potential at UNH. That never meant "hate", and if you came up with a "lazy selfish prima donna" as my so-called "insinuations", then I'm afraid you've missed the mark there as well, my friend.

Not unlike any number of other players before, during, and since JvR's time at UNH, I felt he was an example of someone who was playing to protect his NHL future (and his future earnings). And if that's the case, then hey - who am I to question how he's handled his business? But players who don't put themselves 100% on the line in their current situation (for our discussion, at UNH) aren't ever going to earn my heartfelt respect and admiration. If you - or others - are willing to live with a talented player giving you most of what he has, then good for you. Personally, I'd rather see those players playing elsewhere. My priority is to see UNH winning games consistently again, and eventually to get back to competing regularly in the REAL postseason. And eventually to have some success at that too. Let's move on ...

I do, however, applaud you're first attempt to do some actual research. I was going to simply point out that JVR can only be judged as a poor number 2 pick relative to his draft class - he was the second pick relative to his peers that summer. Not relative to Daniel Sedin. If he went in a better draft class he would have been picked later. Would you appreciate him then? In HIS draft class, he has been a very good number two pick. I've already proven that. The only forwards who have clearly been more successful than JVR are Kane (who went one) and Jamie Benn (who was picked in the sixth round)...

Unfortunately, I looked a little deeper at your research. As far as goals per game by number two picks - JVR ranks 15th out of 24. So he's middle of the pack in scoring for number two picks all time - which is what he was drafted to do. The only way one could be aware of JVRs career production and still push the idea that JVR is a third liner is if they have an agenda. Period.

First of all, I've been checking the Toronto depth charts/line charts on and off for the last couple of seasons, primarily due to seeing how Coach Babcock is using the guy. I've said on here before that Toronto putting Babcock in charge was the best thing that ever could have happened for JvR's career. He is the one guy who is going to pull the best out of JvR, and have the gravitas to do so. JvR has spent time on all three forward lines for the most part during the Babcock era. So was calling him a 3rd liner an exaggeration? Probably, but there is some basis for it. As opposed to your exaggeration later in the post, which we'll get to shortly.

Now let's look at that list of other 2nd overall draft picks. I specifically asked you to focus on the list for the last 25 years - so imagine we draw a line under Yashin. Of the players playing forward positions after that, I see only Jordan Staal and David Legwand producing less than JvR at the same draft position. That's not middle of the pack - that's the bottom quartile (or whatever). By any objective measure, that's on the disappointing side. Not a bust, but not an NHL All-Star caliber player either. And you should expect that at #2 overall, no?

JVR skates in a critical scoring role and as PP guy - who likely scores his 200th NHL goal this season - on any team in the league. Disappointed he's not a transcendent player? Fair. Labeling him as a bust, failure or third-liner? Not. And when you make baseless comments like that, without any evidence to back up your claim, I am absolutely calling you out. You are wrong. It is not ridiculous - with good health - to expect JVR to reach 350 career goals. And, again, in an era where scoring is down (as lamented by you), that would put him in the top 150 all-time. ANY team would sign up for that at #2 this summer...

Yes, it is ridiculous to argue (or is that "insinuate"?) that JvR is anywhere near the Top 150 all-time NHL team, in any capacity. As you've previously acknowledged, health and injuries are parts of this game. If not for some bad knees and pre-arthroscopic medical technology and technique, Bobby Orr would've played 20+ years and doubled his already prodigious stats, and the B's probably would have chipped a few Cups away from the Bowman era Habs. It's fun to discuss the "what if's" sometimes, but at this stage of his career, JvR is a decent player on a decent team, which is getting better around him, not because of him. JvR still continues to be a negative player on plus/minus too, which is something that's been the case in all but two of his NHL seasons to date. Take that for what it's worth.

Oh, and BTW ... your throwaway line about "likely" scoring his 200th NHL goal this season is predicated on him scoring 35 goals this year. Or five (5) full goals more than he has in any of his previous eight (8) NHL seasons. Good one.

---

I will say this for JvR ... I give him more credit for what he did at UNH than what Poturalski did in his two seasons. I've said Tyler Kelleher was the one who made AP look better, you've disagreed. Neither is currently tearing it up in the AHL, but one guy has more points in less games so far, and is faring better in plus/minus, too. Guess?