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Thread: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    Back to Snively's list ... how many seasons did Brick play?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerman View Post
    Back to Snively's list ... how many seasons did Brick play?
    3

  3. #803
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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Ambrose View Post
    I was there as well. Our group left the BU Clarkson game with about five or six minutes to go to head for Chinatown and a celebratory feast. Never forget my buddy Mike yelling out of his car window while we were stuck in traffic that BU had won. Also should be noted that two years later, in the ECAC final vs. Dartmouth, Bob Gould, #17, scored at 17:17 of the third period to give UNH its only ECAC championship. BG was a great player, pretty intense, on some great teams. He would be around 60 today. Believe he is still teaching high school back in his home town of Petrolia, ONT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Ambrose View Post
    Since I watched them both, I'd say that Gould had the better collegiate career, JVR the better pro one. Perhaps if JVR had spent four years at UNH he would have surpassed Gould, although BG was a big game player and I never got the sense that JVR was. And please don't overlook the fact that JVR was the second pick in the draft. Because of it he was afforded opportunities at the pro level that Gould, who was a lowly draft pick in the first wave of college players who reached the NHL, would never have dreamed of. Bottom line for me is that I appreciated JVR's skills but I loved Gould's grit and sense of the big time moment.
    Greg speaks for me on virtually all things pertaining to the Gould-JvR comparison. One can only wonder if a player of Gould's caliber could have been the difference in any of Coach Umile's truly close calls with greatness.
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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Good grief! Did you say soft-spot or blind spot? Bobby Gould was a great player, who had a great moment, at UNH and had a nice NHL career. JVR is on another level, has had a FAR more successful professional career and calling him a third liner indicates a clear agenda. There's a big difference between not a HOF and the scrubby bust you're constantly trying to turn him into. Lots of top picks don't end up in the HOF and still turn in well above average careers...

    JVR has already scored 29 more NHL goals than Gould in 151 fewer games played (in a era of much lower scoring games) and has been a top-six forward since walking into the league at 20 years old.

    JVRs biggest issue has been health and missed games. Yet, he ranks sixth in his draft class in goals scored, despite ranking only tenth in games played. He has had three seasons cut in half due to injury, missing 117 games as a result. Based on his pace in each season, those injuries cost him 38 more goals and 76 more points. 38 more goals would put him fourth in his draft class with 212. Is he a bust at pick #2 because Benn (from out of nowhere) and Paccioretty have surpassed his production? Not in any objective reality...

    Without injuries he would currently be on pace for his 7TH 20+ goal season and third 30+ goal campaign (compared to Gould's 3 and 0) in nine seasons. This season he is on pace for 41 goals...

    Yes, injuries happen - But raw and extrapolated numbers confirm that JVR is (by far) the most prolific NHL goal and point scorer in UNH history, both in total and in GPG. Bobby Gould is not close even now, let alone when JVRs career is done. With good health, he will surpass the career length of all the others in due time. He has also been 'elite' enough to represent the US in the Olympic Games...

    It's sad that so many hold ill feelings towards JVR because they think he owed them more production while at UNH and made it look easy and effortless while playing there (Note - that's what dominant players naturally do! See Gildon. See Poturalski. See all the other players you hate). If JVR stays four years at UNH he is the team's fourth all-time 200 point career scorer (and potentially its second Hobey Baker winner).

    As is, he scored 74 points in two seasons as an 18/19 year old. Only three other UNH forwards have scored as many points in their first two seasons, since 1999, and that would be Haydar (102), Collins (75) and (brace yourself Chuck!) Poturalski (81). Haydar had the benefit of playing with a SR Krog during his FR season. Collins played with SR Haydar in his first year. Poturalski was a 20 year old FR. JVR was the leader of his line both years (primarily Pollostrone and Dries as a FR and Sislo, Leblanc as a SO, if I recall correctly). Not enough?!
    Use of the word "hate" is a bit of a stretch to describe my thoughts on JvR (or Poturalski, or pre-emptively Gildon, whom I've yet to come to any conclusions about, all of a month and a half into his UNH career - talk about agenda driven ). Just because I don't share your lofty opinions on which players you feel are deserving of your worship or adoration (two strong words, but I figured I'd turn it around a bit), doesn't mean I despise them.

    And while it would be silly to argue that JvR hasn't been UNH's most successful player scoring-wise at the NHL level - he is - it would be equally silly to argue that JvR's NHL career to date hasn't been on the disappointing side. Just for kicks and giggles ... here's a link to the 2nd overall NHL draft picks for the last 35 or so seasons (up through 2013 anyways). Go ahead, focus in on the forwards drafted in the same draft slot as JvR over the last 25 or so seasons (including stud defensemen like Pronger, Doughty and Hedman), and tell me if you can come up with more than one (or maybe two?) forwards whose careers have been OR project to be less impressive than what we've seen out of JvR at the NHL level to date.

    http://www.mynhldraft.com/added.php?...hl-draft-picks

    You mentioned Poturalski in your post, and I've not mentioned him on here for months now. Did I miss something amazing he's done since he left UNH, other than sliding down the depth chart in Charlotte?
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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Murray View Post
    Use of the word "hate" is a bit of a stretch to describe my thoughts on JvR (or Poturalski, or pre-emptively Gildon, whom I've yet to come to any conclusions about, all of a month and a half into his UNH career - talk about agenda driven ). Just because I don't share your lofty opinions on which players you feel are deserving of your worship or adoration (two strong words, but I figured I'd turn it around a bit), doesn't mean I despise them.

    And while it would be silly to argue that JvR hasn't been UNH's most successful player scoring-wise at the NHL level - he is - it would be equally silly to argue that JvR's NHL career to date hasn't been on the disappointing side. Just for kicks and giggles ... here's a link to the 2nd overall NHL draft picks for the last 35 or so seasons (up through 2013 anyways). Go ahead, focus in on the forwards drafted in the same draft slot as JvR over the last 25 or so seasons (including stud defensemen like Pronger, Doughty and Hedman), and tell me if you can come up with more than one (or maybe two?) forwards whose careers have been OR project to be less impressive than what we've seen out of JvR at the NHL level to date.

    http://www.mynhldraft.com/added.php?...hl-draft-picks

    You mentioned Poturalski in your post, and I've not mentioned him on here for months now. Did I miss something amazing he's done since he left UNH, other than sliding down the depth chart in Charlotte?
    Sorry, Chuck - you have a type, and your past statements and opinions speak for themselves. I also noticed you've - again - moved the goal posts of the argument from JVR is a third liner to his career is a now only a little disappointing...

    I do, however, applaud you're attempt to do some research. I don't see a need to name names, because you're bias will disagree, but there are a number of players on that list who are/will be no more than JVRs equal by the end of his career.

    More importantly, I simply point out that JVR can only be judged as a poor number 2 pick relative to his draft class - he was the second pick relative to his peers that summer. Not relative to Daniel Sedin. If he went in a better draft class he would have been picked later. Would you appreciate him then? In HIS draft class, he has been a very good number two pick. I've already proven that. The only forwards who have clearly been more successful than JVR are Kane (who went one) and Jamie Benn (who was picked in the sixth round)...

    I did look a little deeper at your research, though, and In terms of goals per game by number two picks JVR already ranks 15th out of 24. So he's middle of the pack in scoring for number two picks all time - which is what he was drafted to do - and still in his prime. The only way one could be aware of JVRs career production and still push the idea that JVR is a third liner is if they have an agenda. Period.

    You were one of JVRs loudest critics when he played at UNH, insinuating that he was lazy, selfish, a prima donna, etc. Head in the pros (exactly what you said about AP). You still harp on him, his UNH career and his current accomplishments nine years after he left UNH? Sure seems like there is some passionate distaste there...

    I'll also take issue with Greg's idea that JVR has received preferential threatment that Gould didn't receive. JVRs draft status may have been the reason he got to the league immediately. It is his 20-30 goal pace in all but one season since that has earned him the respect and opportunity he has received ever since. Gould may have faced challenges getting into the league, but he played almost 700 games. I think the GMs and coaches knew exactly what they have/had and deployed each player accordingly. Haydar and Krog got screwed by being low/non draft picks. Bobby Gould did not.

    JVR skates in a critical scoring role and as PP guy - who likely scores his 200th NHL goal this season - on any team in the league. Disappointed he's not a transcendent player? Fair. Labeling him as a bust, failure or third-liner? Not. And when you make baseless comments like that, without any evidence to back up your claim, I am absolutely calling you out. You are wrong. It is not ridiculous - with good health - to expect JVR to reach 350 career goals. And, again, in an era where scoring is down (as lamented by you), that would put him in the top 150 all-time. ANY team would sign up for that at #2 this summer...

    If you want to make the argument that Gould eclipses JVRs UNH career, that's fair. It's probably true given his production and big moments, but it's ONLY true because he played four seasons to JVRs two.

    Despite the different eras - Gould only outscored him by one over two seasons. Even though Gould played four seasons, both won a single league title and made two NCAA tournaments. Goulds teams made to FFs. JVR was a banked in BU goal and/or a Danny Dries suspension away from a FF of his own.

    You can still take Gould and have a great argument, but If JVR stays at UNH he turns two more good, NCAA Tournament teams into elite-level contenders, likely eclipses 200 points and is probably a two-time AA and a favorite for the Hobey both seasons. Imagine him returning as a JR (Dries too?!) to play with Butler (53 pts that season) and Desimone (37). Or his senior year to play with Sislo (48) and Desimone (41), while Thompson (53) played with Moses (27)...

    ---

    As for Poturalski - I bet you just looked at the stat line and got giddy - after a slow start, he has 4-2--6 in his last seven and 4 points in his last three. One more goal this season will give him six, which matches Steve Saviano's career AHL goal mark. Looks like Poturalski is back to his form of last season, which put him om pace to be one the better AHL scorers and knocking on the door of the next level. Tough break...

    Do I despise the phenomenon that exists in the sports world that leads, say, a hockey fan to wish they had more hard-working players who score a handful of goals and think their team would be better off without the dynamic player who effortlessly scores 1.5-2 PPG? Absolutely, I do. See the, we need more Chris Miller and less Poturalski posts that made their way to this board late two seasons ago...

    But, I don't worship any of these players Chuck - I look at what the numbers and production tell me and I'm objective. There are many times I've come here to post an opinion, looked at the numbers, and posted to opposite. You can prefer whatever players you want - but production is quantifiable. And after all, results are all that matter, right...?
    Last edited by Dan; 11-16-2017 at 08:37 PM.

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    Dan, the last word for me on JVR vs. Gould is that, as a sophomore, Gould scored the winning goal in 2OT in the 10-9 semifinal vs, Cornell. My lasting memory of JVR as a sophomore in the playoffs is the regional final in Manchester vs. BU when he was late on the back check of the player who threw the pass to Colin Wilson for the winner. Gould would have been all over the guy, guaranteed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Ambrose View Post
    Dan, the last word for me on JVR vs. Gould is that, as a sophomore, Gould scored the winning goal in 2OT in the 10-9 semifinal vs, Cornell. My lasting memory of JVR as a sophomore in the playoffs is the regional final in Manchester vs. BU when he was late on the back check of the player who threw the pass to Colin Wilson for the winner. Gould would have been all over the guy, guaranteed.
    That's fine Greg - but you are certainly aware that you're comparing Gould at his best to JVR at his worst with this snapshot comparison. As I said, prefer whoever or whatever type you wish. I understand the sentimental factor as well. I'm not arguing to bash Gould, I'm arguing against unfair shots at JVR...

    JVR came to UNH with through the roof unrealistic expectations. Anything less than 3 points per game wasn't good enough - and the assumption was he wasn't trying. That bothers me. Just look at the struggles of the BU teams loaded with JVRs. It's not a given that even the best 18 year olds, trying their hardest, can dominate college hockey. If his name was, say Trevor Smith, he would have been revered for his dominant sophomore campaign and two year career...

    I doubt it's changed much from era to era - I'm sure there were many games where Ralph Cox blew it or was lazy on D and the fans left Snively wishing they had more 'character' guys like Paul Surdam. Then they'd be winners!

    One notable point in your post, is that while Gould and JVR scored at the same rate as FR and SO, Gould did so in an era where games were played to 10-9 scores. As a sophomore his 49 points ranked him sixth on just his team alone!! It was All-star game hockey with stand-up goalies; hardly comprable...
    Last edited by Dan; 11-16-2017 at 09:26 PM.

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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    I'm just going to group some of Dan's comments together, for sake of responding in a more linear fashion ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Sorry, Chuck - you have a type, and your past statements and opinions speak for themselves. I also noticed you've - again - moved the goal posts of the argument from JVR is a third liner to his career is a now only a little disappointing...

    You were one of JVRs loudest critics when he played at UNH, insinuating that he was lazy, selfish, a prima donna, etc. You still harp on him, his UNH career and his current accomplishments nine years after he left UNH? Sure seems like there is some passionate distaste there...
    So here's the funny thing ... JvR's two years at UNH overlapped with my least active posting period EVER on USCHO. I know that for a fact since I know what I was doing in my real life way back when - as opposed to relying upon your wisps of imagination and "insinuation". No, I've never claimed to be a huge fan of JvR, and at one time or another I've chimed in with observations that probably hit on issues like his work rate in the defensive end, and whether or not he was playing up to his potential at UNH. That never meant "hate", and if you came up with a "lazy selfish prima donna" as my so-called "insinuations", then I'm afraid you've missed the mark there as well, my friend.

    Not unlike any number of other players before, during, and since JvR's time at UNH, I felt he was an example of someone who was playing to protect his NHL future (and his future earnings). And if that's the case, then hey - who am I to question how he's handled his business? But players who don't put themselves 100% on the line in their current situation (for our discussion, at UNH) aren't ever going to earn my heartfelt respect and admiration. If you - or others - are willing to live with a talented player giving you most of what he has, then good for you. Personally, I'd rather see those players playing elsewhere. My priority is to see UNH winning games consistently again, and eventually to get back to competing regularly in the REAL postseason. And eventually to have some success at that too. Let's move on ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    I do, however, applaud you're first attempt to do some actual research. I was going to simply point out that JVR can only be judged as a poor number 2 pick relative to his draft class - he was the second pick relative to his peers that summer. Not relative to Daniel Sedin. If he went in a better draft class he would have been picked later. Would you appreciate him then? In HIS draft class, he has been a very good number two pick. I've already proven that. The only forwards who have clearly been more successful than JVR are Kane (who went one) and Jamie Benn (who was picked in the sixth round)...

    Unfortunately, I looked a little deeper at your research. As far as goals per game by number two picks - JVR ranks 15th out of 24. So he's middle of the pack in scoring for number two picks all time - which is what he was drafted to do. The only way one could be aware of JVRs career production and still push the idea that JVR is a third liner is if they have an agenda. Period.
    First of all, I've been checking the Toronto depth charts/line charts on and off for the last couple of seasons, primarily due to seeing how Coach Babcock is using the guy. I've said on here before that Toronto putting Babcock in charge was the best thing that ever could have happened for JvR's career. He is the one guy who is going to pull the best out of JvR, and have the gravitas to do so. JvR has spent time on all three forward lines for the most part during the Babcock era. So was calling him a 3rd liner an exaggeration? Probably, but there is some basis for it. As opposed to your exaggeration later in the post, which we'll get to shortly.

    Now let's look at that list of other 2nd overall draft picks. I specifically asked you to focus on the list for the last 25 years - so imagine we draw a line under Yashin. Of the players playing forward positions after that, I see only Jordan Staal and David Legwand producing less than JvR at the same draft position. That's not middle of the pack - that's the bottom quartile (or whatever). By any objective measure, that's on the disappointing side. Not a bust, but not an NHL All-Star caliber player either. And you should expect that at #2 overall, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    JVR skates in a critical scoring role and as PP guy - who likely scores his 200th NHL goal this season - on any team in the league. Disappointed he's not a transcendent player? Fair. Labeling him as a bust, failure or third-liner? Not. And when you make baseless comments like that, without any evidence to back up your claim, I am absolutely calling you out. You are wrong. It is not ridiculous - with good health - to expect JVR to reach 350 career goals. And, again, in an era where scoring is down (as lamented by you), that would put him in the top 150 all-time. ANY team would sign up for that at #2 this summer...
    Yes, it is ridiculous to argue (or is that "insinuate"?) that JvR is anywhere near the Top 150 all-time NHL team, in any capacity. As you've previously acknowledged, health and injuries are parts of this game. If not for some bad knees and pre-arthroscopic medical technology and technique, Bobby Orr would've played 20+ years and doubled his already prodigious stats, and the B's probably would have chipped a few Cups away from the Bowman era Habs. It's fun to discuss the "what if's" sometimes, but at this stage of his career, JvR is a decent player on a decent team, which is getting better around him, not because of him. JvR still continues to be a negative player on plus/minus too, which is something that's been the case in all but two of his NHL seasons to date. Take that for what it's worth.

    Oh, and BTW ... your throwaway line about "likely" scoring his 200th NHL goal this season is predicated on him scoring 35 goals this year. Or five (5) full goals more than he has in any of his previous eight (8) NHL seasons. Good one.

    ---

    I will say this for JvR ... I give him more credit for what he did at UNH than what Poturalski did in his two seasons. I've said Tyler Kelleher was the one who made AP look better, you've disagreed. Neither is currently tearing it up in the AHL, but one guy has more points in less games so far, and is faring better in plus/minus, too. Guess?
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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aerman View Post
    Back to Snively's list ... how many seasons did Brick play?
    Excellent, Aerman!. I will edit my earlier post (no. 776) to include Brick's NHL 11 seasons (albeit first and last were 3 and 2 games, respectively, similar to some others that I edited).
    Last edited by Snively65; 11-16-2017 at 09:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Murray View Post
    I'm just going to group some of Dan's comments together, for sake of responding in a more linear fashion ...



    So here's the funny thing ... JvR's two years at UNH overlapped with my least active posting period EVER on USCHO. I know that for a fact since I know what I was doing in my real life way back when - as opposed to relying upon your wisps of imagination and "insinuation". No, I've never claimed to be a huge fan of JvR, and at one time or another I've chimed in with observations that probably hit on issues like his work rate in the defensive end, and whether or not he was playing up to his potential at UNH. That never meant "hate", and if you came up with a "lazy selfish prima donna" as my so-called "insinuations", then I'm afraid you've missed the mark there as well, my friend.

    Not unlike any number of other players before, during, and since JvR's time at UNH, I felt he was an example of someone who was playing to protect his NHL future (and his future earnings). And if that's the case, then hey - who am I to question how he's handled his business? But players who don't put themselves 100% on the line in their current situation (for our discussion, at UNH) aren't ever going to earn my heartfelt respect and admiration. If you - or others - are willing to live with a talented player giving you most of what he has, then good for you. Personally, I'd rather see those players playing elsewhere. My priority is to see UNH winning games consistently again, and eventually to get back to competing regularly in the REAL postseason. And eventually to have some success at that too. Let's move on ...



    First of all, I've been checking the Toronto depth charts/line charts on and off for the last couple of seasons, primarily due to seeing how Coach Babcock is using the guy. I've said on here before that Toronto putting Babcock in charge was the best thing that ever could have happened for JvR's career. He is the one guy who is going to pull the best out of JvR, and have the gravitas to do so. JvR has spent time on all three forward lines for the most part during the Babcock era. So was calling him a 3rd liner an exaggeration? Probably, but there is some basis for it. As opposed to your exaggeration later in the post, which we'll get to shortly.

    Now let's look at that list of other 2nd overall draft picks. I specifically asked you to focus on the list for the last 25 years - so imagine we draw a line under Yashin. Of the players playing forward positions after that, I see only Jordan Staal and David Legwand producing less than JvR at the same draft position. That's not middle of the pack - that's the bottom quartile (or whatever). By any objective measure, that's on the disappointing side. Not a bust, but not an NHL All-Star caliber player either. And you should expect that at #2 overall, no?



    Yes, it is ridiculous to argue (or is that "insinuate"?) that JvR is anywhere near the Top 150 all-time NHL team, in any capacity. As you've previously acknowledged, health and injuries are parts of this game. If not for some bad knees and pre-arthroscopic medical technology and technique, Bobby Orr would've played 20+ years and doubled his already prodigious stats, and the B's probably would have chipped a few Cups away from the Bowman era Habs. It's fun to discuss the "what if's" sometimes, but at this stage of his career, JvR is a decent player on a decent team, which is getting better around him, not because of him. JvR still continues to be a negative player on plus/minus too, which is something that's been the case in all but two of his NHL seasons to date. Take that for what it's worth.

    Oh, and BTW ... your throwaway line about "likely" scoring his 200th NHL goal this season is predicated on him scoring 35 goals this year. Or five (5) full goals more than he has in any of his previous eight (8) NHL seasons. Good one.

    ---

    I will say this for JvR ... I give him more credit for what he did at UNH than what Poturalski did in his two seasons. I've said Tyler Kelleher was the one who made AP look better, you've disagreed. Neither is currently tearing it up in the AHL, but one guy has more points in less games so far, and is faring better in plus/minus, too. Guess?
    Gee, I wonder why you don't want to include the second round picks pre-Yashin? Why focus on the whole sample size when you can focus only on the part that helps your case. And you're still wrong, because in your hand picked sample size he ranks 8th of 13 in goal scoring pace. Certainly Sedin is the better player, but JVR has given you everything you'd get from Bobby Ryan. I eagerly await your new points of comparison to win the remaining four arguments - a different one for each player I'm sure. To beat you to the punch, Barkov and Landeskog have played plenty of games to know what they are...

    Goals Per Game
    Malkin - .46 (335 / 727)
    Heatley - .43 (372 / 869)
    Yashin - .40 (337 / 850)
    Seguin - .37 (197/527)
    E. Stall - .35 (359 / 1028)
    Marleau - .34 (516 / 1513)
    Ryan - .33 (223 / 678)
    JVR - .32 (174 / 547)
    Sedin - .30 (373 / 1243)
    Barkov - .29 (79 / 269)
    Landeskog - .28 (167 / 444)
    J. Stall - .25 (193 / 781)
    Legwand - .20 (228 / 1136)

    Not only is he middle of the pack, but he's five goals over the course of a season and a quarter away from the top of the middle of the pack. Facts matter.

    Line charts don't. Half the line charts posted in a given night in NCAA hockey have the team's best line listed third. That argument is laughably bad. It's apparent what type of player he is, what his role is and how he is valued. Calling someone a third liner refers to their ability, not what line they're playing on in a single night. You know this.

    As for him hitting 200 goals this season and 350 for his career - it's not far fetched either. Certainly health is a factor - but you know what you can't be if you get hurt? A bust! The ability is what it is, cut short by injury or not.

    First of all - JVR is currently on pace for 41 goals this year, so hitting 200 represents a step back from the pace he's on right now. If he doesn't hit it this season, he'll hit it VERY early next year. He has essentially scored atleast a 25 goal pace for the last eight seasons and nearly a 30 goal pace the last six. Here are his single season per 82 goal productions - 16,23,21,31,31,27,29,29,41 (surprising, huh?).

    Let's say he only hits 195 (scoring five full goals less than 35 this year!) by the end of this season - he's still only 29 as of the start of next season. It's easy to see him scoring 100 more goals (25/yr) by the time he's 32. Then let's say his prime is over and he only averages 15/11 over the next four or five. That fairly conservative projection puts him at - gasp - 355/350 by the time he's 36/37 and ready to hang it up. So no, it's not unreasonable to think he has a chance to hit the top 150 (which actually only means 341 goals) - simple math shows it's likely unless he's injured or just walks away. Which again, would have NOTHING to do with his ability. Injuries happen. There are also essentially four guys in this list who have played double the games JVR has (a few more will join them) - and if you double JVRs goals...350...

    Finally, it's ridiculous to expound on the effort and mindset of AP or JVR when you have no idea what the truth is. Because they're not blocking shots with their face, dominating every single shift and are good enough to leave early they weren't trying and didn't care about their time at UNH? That's bologna. Kelleher, Saviano, Gould - they all leave early if they are good enough, big enough and have a 750K opportunity dangled in front of them. Period. It has nothing to do with how much or how little they invested in their time at UNH...

    You may remember JVR had the chance to leave as a FR and surprised/upset many pundits by choosing to stay. It's almost as if he loved his time at UNH!? You question APs effort and care for UNH, while dismissing out of hand the many sources who have told you flatly he played with an injured shoulder down the stretch? If he was the player/person you paint him to be he would have sat. Would he have 'cared' more about his time at UNH if they hadn't deferred him and he skated theee years in Durham? Souza, himself, called him one of the best to ever play at UNH. Both he and TK were elite players - capable of producing at elite levels alone or even more so together. It really isn't complicated. Unless you want to muddy the waters to reinforce you're pre- determined opinions...

    That's it for me. Until next time, my friend...
    Last edited by Dan; 11-17-2017 at 08:29 AM.

  12. #812
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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    Any reason why no one is talking about tonightís game ? 😊

    BC is not ranked while UNH is ranked along with NU and PC and our rivals down Comm Ave⛳️

    Iím driving up to watch tonight and looking forward to watching this matchup tonight.

  13. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCeagle View Post
    Any reason why no one is talking about tonightís game ? 😊

    BC is not ranked while UNH is ranked along with NU and PC and our rivals down Comm Ave⛳️

    Iím driving up to watch tonight and looking forward to watching this matchup tonight.
    Would love to chat about it we usually do more post game. Our blogger Mike Lowry (C-H-C) did a great job discussing the match up in the BCInterruption blog.

    Looking for competitive game with your Eagles and glad we will have a couple of our forwards back. 'Cats haven't beaten BC (or the hillbillies as they are affectionately called here) since I've started following them although we tied and lost by one here last season.

    Gotta break that two game losing streak and can't think of a better team to do that with than BC 😉 Go 'Cats!!!
    Last edited by HockeyRef; 11-17-2017 at 07:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HockeyRef View Post
    Would love to chat about it we usually do more post game. Our blogger Mike Lowry (C-H-C) did a great job discussing the match up in the BCInterruption blog.

    Looking for competitive game with your Eagles and glad we will have a couple of our forwards back. 'Cats haven't beaten BC (or the hillbillies as they are affectionately called here) since I've started following them although we tied and lost by one here last season.

    Gotta break that two game losing streak and can't think of a better team to do that with than BC 😉 Go 'Cats!!!
    Last five -
    BC: 5-0-0
    UNH: 1-3-1

    I fear both teams are regressing to the mean and that the regression continues tonight. I'm sure there was much hand-wringing on the heights after BCs slow start - but the reality is their early schedule was a gauntlet. Three losses to SCSU and DU (arguably the two best teams in the country) and one (as part of a split) versus PC. They might want the UW loss back, but that's hardly a bad loss in a vacuum. They're talented and playing well.

    UNH needs one of tonight and at Yale - obviously the preference would be for the HE win - and a split at PC to have some momentum heading into a stretch of VERY winnable games...
    Last edited by Dan; 11-17-2017 at 08:52 AM.

  15. #815
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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Gee, I wonder why you don't want to include the second round picks pre-Yashin? Why focus on the whole sample size when you can focus only on the part that helps your case. And you're still wrong, because in your hand picked sample size he ranks 8th of 13 in goal scoring pace. Certainly Sedin is the better player, but JVR has given you everything you'd get from Bobby Ryan. I eagerly await your new points of comparison to win the remaining four arguments - a different one for each player I'm sure. To beat you to the punch, Barkov and Landeskog have played plenty of games to know what they are...

    Goals Per Game
    Malkin - .46 (335 / 727)
    Heatley - .43 (372 / 869)
    Yashin - .40 (337 / 850)
    Seguin - .37 (197/527)
    E. Stall - .35 (359 / 1028)
    Marleau - .34 (516 / 1513)
    Ryan - .33 (223 / 678)
    JVR - .32 (174 / 547)
    Sedin - .30 (373 / 1243)
    Barkov - .29 (79 / 269)
    Landeskog - .28 (167 / 444)
    J. Stall - .25 (193 / 781)
    Legwand - .20 (228 / 1136)

    Not only is he middle of the pack, but he's five goals over the course of a season and a quarter away from the top of the middle of the pack. Facts matter.

    Line charts don't. Half the line charts posted in a given night in NCAA hockey have the team's best line listed third. That argument is laughably bad. It's apparent what type of player he is, what his role is and how he is valued. Calling someone a third liner refers to their ability, not what line they're playing on in a single night. You know this.

    As for him hitting 200 goals this season and 350 for his career - it's not far fetched either. Certainly health is a factor - but you know what you can't be if you get hurt? A bust! The ability is what it is, cut short by injury or not.

    First of all - JVR is currently on pace for 41 goals this year, so hitting 200 represents a step back from the pace he's on right now. If he doesn't hit it this season, he'll hit it VERY early next year. He has essentially scored atleast a 25 goal pace for the last eight seasons and nearly a 30 goal pace the last six. Here are his single season per 82 goal productions - 16,23,21,31,31,27,29,29,41 (surprising, huh?).

    Let's say he only hits 195 (scoring five full goals less than 35 this year!) by the end of this season - he's still only 29 as of the start of next season. It's easy to see him scoring 100 more goals (25/yr) by the time he's 32. Then let's say his prime is over and he only averages 15/11 over the next four or five. That fairly conservative projection puts him at - gasp - 355/350 by the time he's 36/37 and ready to hang it up. So no, it's not unreasonable to think he has a chance to hit the top 150 (which actually only means 341 goals) - simple math shows it's likely unless he's injured or just walks away. Which again, would have NOTHING to do with his ability. Injuries happen. There are also essentially four guys in this list who have played double the games JVR has (a few more will join them) - and if you double JVRs goals...350...

    Finally, it's ridiculous to expound on the effort and mindset of AP or JVR when you have no idea what the truth is. Because they're not blocking shots with their face, dominating every single shift and are good enough to leave early they weren't trying and didn't care about their time at UNH? That's bologna. Kelleher, Saviano, Gould - they all leave early if they are good enough, big enough and have a 750K opportunity dangled in front of them. Period. It has nothing to do with how much or how little they invested in their time at UNH...

    You may remember JVR had the chance to leave as a FR and surprised/upset many pundits by choosing to stay. It's almost as if he loved his time at UNH!? You question APs effort and care for UNH, while dismissing out of hand the many sources who have told you flatly he played with an injured shoulder down the stretch? If he was the player/person you paint him to be he would have sat. Would he have 'cared' more about his time at UNH if they hadn't deferred him and he skated theee years in Durham? Souza, himself, called him one of the best to ever play at UNH. Both he and TK were elite players - capable of producing at elite levels alone or even more so together. It really isn't complicated. Unless you want to muddy the waters to reinforce you're pre- determined opinions...

    That's it for me. Until next time, my friend...
    You lost me at the "JVR has given you everything you'd get from Bobby Ryan" part. Suffice to say that while Ryan is still marginally better than JvR in your hand-picked measurement (GPG), he has consistently brought a more well-rounded game to the table over the course of his career. Ryan has consistently been a plus player, while JvR has consistently been a minus player. I'll admit the difference between the two statistically was less than I'd anticipated, but it appears that's mostly because Ryan's recent output in Ottawa has been sliding.

    Maybe the Ryan v. JvR comparison helps me bridge the discussion back to what I think is at the root of most of our disagreements, which might be how these guys go about competing. I know the baseline assumption of those who rely heavily on statistical analysis is that you can assume all players are giving equal/maximum effort. I've never bought into that assumption. That's not to say or imply that a player who doesn't dig as deep as someone else is "lazy". Far from it. Sure, there are exceptions, and *maybe* some extraordinarily talented players (Yashin is a name we've already mentioned here) who are either dysfunctional and/or outside of their comfort zone just get too comfortable cashing paychecks, and giving less than full effort. It happens - not often, but it does happen. For the other 95+% of players (which includes JvR, Poturalski, and most of the other names we've discussed on here so far) the fear/motivation of losing their ice time or their roster slot does pretty much keep everyone else "honest". But some guys will simply push harder for their 100% than others.

    Prime example I've always used on this issue is Steve Yzerman (BTW a 4th overall pick in his draft year). Yzerman was going to be a HHOF player after the first half of his career, no matter what happened afterwards. But he was a one-dimensional player, and his teams always came up short in the postseason, despite being laden with all-time talented players. Scotty Bowman happened, and when he did, Yzerman was on the trading block until he met with Bowman, and bought 100% into his system. Yzerman committed fully to the two-way game, and while his scoring fell off modestly - still at levels that the JvR's and Ryans of the world could only dream about - he became a consistently plus player (never a negative year post-Bowman, when he was 50/50 pre-Bowman), and started winning the Stanley Cups his previous teams failed to snag. And when he often was overlooked for the big international competitions early in his career - in part due to guys like Gretzky and Lemieux being in their primes, and in equal part due to perceptions about his defensive indifference - he eventually became the leader of the Canadian teams in those same competitions later in his career.

    Yzerman could have parked it in neutral when Bowman came along, accepted a trade to hometown Ottawa, and racked up 800 goals and probably pushed for 2,000 points (more fodder for the NRN crowd out there ). It took a guy like Bowman to unlock the proverbial extra 10% to get him the Cups and the widespread recognition from peers and coaches he earned in the second half of his career. That's what a coach like Babcock might be able to do for JvR. As for Yzerman, he seems to have learned his lessons so well, he's applying them for one of the best teams in the NHL right now down in that hockey hotbed of Tampa FL.

    To freshen it up for modern-day players/fans ... let's just say some folks are drawn to the Patrick Kane types, others opt for the Jonathan Toews types. My guess is you are a Kane guy, and I'm a Toews guy. It takes all kinds, and just because you like certain styles/players while I prefer different ones, doesn't mean either "hates" the other style. JMHO.
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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    No, Dan. I was not comparing their scoring stats. I'm aware that goals came cheap back in the seventies so comparing JVR and Gould based on scoring stats is meaningless. My comparison of Gould as a sophomore and JVR as a sophomore was their performances in the most important games of their respective seasons where a win would put his team into the Final (Frozen) Four. In Gould's game, there were 19 freakin' goals scored, but none in the first overtime. Cornell was not a chump team and, as the second OT began, it would not have surprised anyone if they got the game winner. But, then again, it wouldn't have surprised any of my UNH buddies at the time if Gould got the game winner. In 2009 UNH was a decisive underdog against BU but there they were tied with less than a minute to go. UNH needed ever player to dig deep and prevent a score. I was sitting in the end zone corner as BU rushed up the ice and I distinctly remember JVR trailing the play on the left wing, allowing his man the freedom to make a pass cross ice to Wilson. Yes, it was a bad moment for JVR, in fact the last time he had an impact on a game at UNH, and it certainly should not define his college career. But it does define him in comparison to Gould in a big playoff game, and he ends up short.

    Btw, you will never find me pining for Paul Surdam over Ralph Cox. Cox was an uber scorer. That year, 1977, he was on the same line as Miller. It was ridiculous how good they were together. Surdam was fourth line penalty killer, very effective but even he would tell you he was no Cox. Just an aside, the first time I ever saw Ralph Cox in person was an EMass HS semi-final when Archbishop Williams played Stoneham, whose star was Paul Surdam.

  17. #817
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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Last five -
    BC: 5-0-0
    UNH: 1-3-1

    I fear both teams are regressing to the mean and that the regression continues tonight.
    Dan, I think BC is ascending to the mean.

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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    This BC team is very young with no seniors except a graduate student from Michigan with a handful of juniors. It is a sophomore and freshman dominated team starting to play better of late.

    This is their next test with back to back road games against 2 ranked teams in Hockey East.

    Iím thinking a split is fine this weekend and hoping they can continue to play well.

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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    Quote Originally Posted by BCeagle View Post
    This BC team is very young with no seniors except a graduate student from Michigan with a handful of juniors. It is a sophomore and freshman dominated team starting to play better of late.

    This is their next test with back to back road games against 2 ranked teams in Hockey East.

    Iím thinking a split is fine this weekend and hoping they can continue to play well.
    Well Bceagle I'm feeling a 4-3 game! Problem is the ball is to cloudy to see the winner.

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    Re: UNH Wildcats-The Back Nine and Beyond!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Ambrose View Post
    Dan, I think BC is ascending to the mean.
    Yes, that is what I meant.

    As to the BU/UNH '09 Regional Final - your memory is a little off, although I can certainly understand why this is your impression.

    First of all, BU scored the game winner on the PP when Jason Lawrence's pass across the crease hit a sliding Jerry Pollastrone and ricocheted into the net. JVR was the UNH player in the penalty box. You recollection of JVR being late into the play is because he was the last man into the zone on the preceding rush and hauled down Nick Bonino, who had a point-blank shot from the mid-slot, to take a late hooking penalty. Before you blame JVR's lazy back-check for resulting in a crucial penalty, take a look at the highlights of that game below. If you do, you'll first notice JVR generates a lot of chances for himself and for his teammates throughout the game (the real difference in the game was Kieran Milan's goaltending). UNH out-chanced BU and really could/should have won this game. If you skip ahead to the 5:40 mark you'll also notice JVR save a goal on a BU wraparound attempt and then clear the puck out of danger. Finally, at the 7:10 mark you'll get to the play that led to JVRs penalty...

    Now, take a close look at the UNH forwards in the offensive zone. You'll see that the three forechecking forwards, beaten by the BU rush up ice are, #20, #39 and #17. That checks out with UNH's third line that day, consisting of DeSimone, Fortney and Thompson. At least one of those forwards heads to the bench instead of backchecking. JVR jumps on in his place and as a result is late into the zone. He IS NOT late because he wasn't committed to coverage in a big game. He is chasing the play because he is coming from the bench after BU has already entered the zone. His effort to get into the play, prevent a scoring chance and his reaction to taking the penalty indicate a player who was skating hard, VERY committed to his team and into this play and this game...

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmQ_2a6WPo0

    One final point, JVR is a supremely skilled and athletic individual. Players like JVR OFTEN look like they're not trying, because they are so fluid and skilled and the game comes naturally to them. Just because his legs aren't moving a mile a minute doesn't mean he's not giving the needed effort. Certainly not in this game. The film doesn't lie. I believe you should re-think him as a no-show in his last career game, Greg...
    Last edited by Dan; 11-17-2017 at 02:52 PM.

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