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Thread: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

  1. #121
    Mr. Sanctimonious Gurtholfin's Avatar
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    You have to bound a pantheon by the audience. The Beatles are far and away #1 -- for white American and European boomers.

    Right now there is probably some Korean or Chinese act that neither you nor I have ever heard of who has reached 10x the number of people currently alive as the Beatles. And in fifty years the Beatles will be to even white Americans and Europeans yet unborn what, say, Louis Armstrong is to us -- most people have heard of them, most musically savvy people know you always have to mention them as iconic, and they probably have influential roots you aren't aware of, but... their time is over and they are now just another monument to the dead.

    Giant audiences all around the world turn out to see the bands that are popular with Westerners. The reverse cannot be said about some theoretical popular Chinese or Korean band.

    It has nothing to do with boomers.

    The Beatles are simply the most iconic and influential rock band to ever exist. There's before the Beatles and there's after. Other than Elvis, who can that be said about on such a grand scale in rock music?

    And please don't give me the Sex Pistols or Nirvana. Instruments of change, no doubt.

    Small potatoes on the world stage though.
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    There is no punk/grunge/etc band that can touch the Beatles, Stones, Led. Not even a debate there.
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurtholfin View Post
    The way you guys prize your fair, that seems like quite an honor.
    It wasn't a compliment

    I didn't say grandstand or Lienie's lodge.

  4. #124
    Mr. Sanctimonious Gurtholfin's Avatar
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    And I'm sure I could name a hundred bands that I like more than The Beatles at this point in my life.

    It's not about what I personally like.
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    I disagree with the position Nirvana is overrated and without Dave Grohl or Buth Vig's production they were nothing. Strip Nevermind down to Cobain and an acoustic and those songs are still amazing and catchy as hell. No other band of that era including Jane's Adiction, Smashing Pumpkins, The Pixies, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, AIC, could have or did accomplish what Nirvana did and it was Cobain's songwriting chops that lit the way. Nirvana didn't just break open indie/punk into the mainstream they pushed out the bloated glam of the poison/Motley Crue/a fading gn'r etc right off the front pages and into history.

    I love Bleach and In Utero but Nevermind represents such an aggressive step up and a throwing down of the gauntlet that it stands alone (to me) above the remainder of 90's releases.

  6. #126
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    While it makes me physically ill to be on the same side of an argument as Slap, this isn't even an argument. There is no rock or pop band or music since that is not heavily influenced by the Beatles. Or in other words, your favorite band's music would not exist as it does today without them. Metal, Funk, Punk, Power Pop, Grunge, even Rap. What are songs like "I am the Walrus" and "Come Together" if not the precursors to Hip Hop and Rap? Combine their elements with this (which is widely accepted as the first successful electronica song,) throw in any ballad and mix. You have all the elements contained in modern music from Jay-Z to the Biebs. Their music covered and anticipated nearly everything since. Name a popular movement of the last 40 years it didn't?


    Rolling Stone's attempt at objectively rating the 500 greatest albums of all time put's 10 of the Beatles 11 original releases on the list. THREE of the top 5 are Beatles, FIVE of the top 15. (#1, #3, #5, #10, #14) And while perhaps sales do not define "Great" in themselves as Brent points out, there are sales, and then there are SALES. The Beatles have sold 1.6 billion singles in the US alone, and over 800 million albums worldwide. That's one for every 9.4 people on earth right now.
    Incidentally when Kep scoffed at JT's Greatest Hits with "James Taylor sucks" it reminded me just how subjective most of these discussions are. That album sold 10 million plus and there are what, maybe 75 ten million+ sellers all time? Tastes vary widely and that's a good thing. Is there anybody who doesn't like at least some Beatles song(s) though? Probably not.

    That Boomers play a part in the Beatles longevity is certainly true, but Brian Epstein said prophetically in 1964 that "Children of the 21st century will be listening to Beatles songs". The best selling album of the 2000's decade? The Beatles "One". There's no reason to believe that children of the 2050's will not be listening as well. Go to any bar in any country in the world, and play Hey Jude, Yesterday, Lucy in the Sky, or any of dozen or more others and you will find instant recognition. Next year McCartney and Lennon's estate get back US rights to nearly all of the Lennon-McCartney penned song catalog. Yet another resurgence of popularity could well be in the offing.
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    DYKWIA? FadeToBlack&Gold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solovsfett View Post
    I disagree with the position Nirvana is overrated and without Dave Grohl or Buth Vig's production they were nothing. Strip Nevermind down to Cobain and an acoustic and those songs are still amazing and catchy as hell. No other band of that era including Jane's Adiction, Smashing Pumpkins, The Pixies, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, AIC, could have or did accomplish what Nirvana did and it was Cobain's songwriting chops that lit the way. Nirvana didn't just break open indie/punk into the mainstream they pushed out the bloated glam of the poison/Motley Crue/a fading gn'r etc right off the front pages and into history.

    I love Bleach and In Utero but Nevermind represents such an aggressive step up and a throwing down of the gauntlet that it stands alone (to me) above the remainder of 90's releases.
    Pearl Jam were poised to do it, if Nirvana hadn't. Ten was 100% written and engineered with an ear for radio airplay - Mike, Stone, and Jeff were determined to be rockstars. It's a very wet record.

    I respectfully disagree that Nevermind is a hit with Cobain alone. In my mind's ear, half those songs don't work as lo-fi acoustic tracks. I will concede that Vig isn't necessarily a producing god, and certainly some other guys could've achieved the final 'sound' that he did. However, you can't seriously tell me that there's not a clear difference in the drumming styles and capabilities of Chad Channing vs. Dave Grohl.

    Soundgarden and AIC were always going to be what they were - niche alt metal/prog rock that mostly caters to particular segments. AIC for the jocks (early) and goths (later), SG for the stoners and socially awkward music nerds.

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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurtholfin View Post
    The way you guys prize your fair, that seems like quite an honor.


    Journey in their prime - like them or not - was... well... never mind...

    I can't defend Journey even if I liked them as a 12 year old.


    I liked Neal Schon.

    Steve Perry should be throttled mid wail though. I hate hm.
    I still have a soft spot for much of Gregg Rolie era Journey. Once he left, the egos of Schon and Perry ran amok, and they replaced him with a soft-pop pablum writing journeyman.
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    By the way the Beatles are not even my favorite band of all time so this isn't me being defensive. I could name several bands/artists off the top of my head (The Replacements, REM, The Cure, Foo Fighters, Prince, BRMC, Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead...) ahead of the Beatles on my favorites list.

    This is an argument based upon logic and even more so principal. As far as craftsmanship, sphere of influence, innovation, creativity, experimentation, tenure, record sales, impact, popularity, world-wide exposure and any other measuring stick except rapping prowess you want to name they are untouchable and to argue otherwise makes a person sound foolish.
    Yes. This is where you have to separate 'favorites' from objective greatness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    Pearl Jam were poised to do it, if Nirvana hadn't. Ten was 100% written and engineered with an ear for radio airplay - Mike, Stone, and Jeff were determined to be rockstars. It's a very wet record.

    I respectfully disagree that Nevermind is a hit with Cobain alone. In my mind's ear, half those songs don't work as lo-fi acoustic tracks. I will concede that Vig isn't necessarily a producing god, and certainly some other guys could've achieved the final 'sound' that he did. However, you can't seriously tell me that there's not a clear difference in the drumming styles and capabilities of Chad Channing vs. Dave Grohl.

    Soundgarden and AIC were always going to be what they were - niche alt metal/prog rock that mostly caters to particular segments. AIC for the jocks (early) and goths (later), SG for the stoners and socially awkward music nerds.
    I agree with everything here but Dave grohl. Most of the catchy drum parts on Nevermind were written by Channing (including In Bloom) and grohl admits that. Grohl upped the intensity/volume but the creativity belonged to Channing apparently.

    Although Grohl did hit a sweet spot with Scentless Apprentice and My Hero re: drumming.

    I guess I would say I'm of the opinion Dave Grohl is overrated as a drummer. I think Jimmy Chamberlin, Matt Cameron, William Calhoun and Stephen Perkins were more creative/innovative forces in their respective bands/the 90's.

  11. #131
    Anti-Semantic Brenthoven's Avatar
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Pearl Jam would have taken Nirvana's place, although I think PJ isn't grunge. They are/were straight up rock and roll. PJ has stood the test of time, also, which is one of the signs of greatness.
    Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Quote Originally Posted by solovsfett View Post
    I agree with everything here but Dave grohl. Most of the catchy drum parts on Nevermind were written by Channing (including In Bloom) and grohl admits that. Grohl upped the intensity/volume but the creativity belonged to Channing apparently.

    Although Grohl did hit a sweet spot with Scentless Apprentice and My Hero re: drumming.

    I guess I would say I'm of the opinion Dave Grohl is overrated as a drummer. I think Jimmy Chamberlin, Matt Cameron, William Calhoun and Stephen Perkins were more creative/innovative forces in their respective bands/the 90's.
    I actually did not know that, so thank you.

    That said, I've always maintained that Cameron is the best drummer of his sub-genre, if not his generation. All of Soundgarden's FUBAR time signatures required him to be creative and dead-on.

    Say what you will about STP, but I always thought Eric Kretz was a bit underrated, too.

    EDIT: Also, Berrett Martin - Skin Yard/Screaming Trees
    Last edited by FadeToBlack&Gold; 07-29-2017 at 08:14 PM.
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    I got nothing Slap Shot's Avatar
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Don't get me started (ok you already have) on claiming Nirvana were overrated especially Nevermind. Whether or not PJ or Soundgarden or AIC were set to explode the scene had Nirvana not the fact is that's not what happened. Therefore that's their claim and no one else's. Just simply do some research on what the rest of the Seattle bands thought of Cobain and you'll understand Nirvana's influence was not overrated, and dig further on how many musical acts to follow were inspired by Nirvana and you'll get a clearer picture on why they're not overrated.

    As far as their music was concerned almost all the writing then was from Kurt. Noveslic and Grohl are both amazing in their own right and I'm a huge Foo Fighters guy, but most of Dave's writing in those days was kept to himself and instead used on the first Foos release.

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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Nirvana and Pearl Jam are decade bands -- their music was dominant and important in the 90s. The Beatles and the Rolling Stones are two-decade bands -- their music was dominate and important in the 60s and 70s. Not talking about freshly produced music, obviously, after all the Beatles for all intents are only active in the 60s -- but the true, living influence of the band -- it's active influence, not nostalgia or the endless recapitulation of its fanbase.

    For example, The Who, my personal favorite superband of the 70s, are a zero-decade band. They did not substantially change music for any meaningful length of time.

    There's only one three-decade group in American postwar history. If you increase the timeframe to go back to 1900 there's probably an argument to be made for somebody like Robert Johnson.
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    I got nothing Slap Shot's Avatar
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Some kids today can still name Beatles songs (more or less) and often enjoy them. My kids also know of Nirvana and it wasn't because I played it for them.

    Kids react to the Beatles
    Bonus material
    Kids break down "I am the Walrus"
    Elders listen to the Beatles and give you perspective from those around at that time

    "Everyone knows the Beatles, they're legends"
    "Who doesn't like the Beatles? Well I know some but they're mentally messed up"

    Kids don't know the Beatles? Kep you need to get out more.
    Last edited by Slap Shot; 07-29-2017 at 10:19 PM.

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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Everyone knows the Beatles. Everyone also knows Madonna, and frankly, after about 1990, she became a hack that latched on whatever current trend was the "in" thing.

    Yes, drastic statement, and I don't equate those two, just saying it to make a point. Just because you know of a band, doesn't mean that band is legendary.

    I do love this discussion, though. It's all opinion, and educated ones, at that.
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Just enter, "Beatles influence" in the search bar of YouTube and come back after a few hours. Dave Grohl of all people cite the Beatles and particularly Ringo (who Kep not surprisingly couldn't be more wrong about) as being massively influential on him. Listen to composer Howard Goodall express his admiration for their work.

    The Beatles influence today

    "In 2003 an article by The Independent explained that a third of all Beatles records are being bought people under the age 24 despite the fact the group split up before these people were even born."

    If it weren't for the Beatles I wouldn't be a musician

    If Bob Dylan of all people is saying they were doing things that no one else was doing and Jimmy Page is saying people like him wouldn't be around without them? "I think the Beatles are the reason I'm a musician" - Sting. Joe Perry said they were cool, Kurt Vonnegut, Alice Cooper, Gene Simmons, Brian Wilson "Sgt. Peppers is probably the greatest album I've ever heard", Tommy Hilfiger talks about their influence on fashion, Brian May, Joe Walsh, Robin Gibb, Keith Richards...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL4AAH1ua8o
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkCJcbeeTE4

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  18. #138
    Anti-Semantic Brenthoven's Avatar
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Are you done sucking Lennon's schlong?

    I do agree that Ringo is UNDERrated.
    Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
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  19. #139
    I got nothing Slap Shot's Avatar
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    Are you done sucking Lennon's schlong?
    If you're done talking out of your ***.

  20. #140
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    Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    If you're done talking out of your ***.
    Not quite. I just don't put the Beatles as high up as you do. They are up there, no question, we agree on that. It's a matter of what level.
    Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
    Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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