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USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

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  • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
    Have you seen The Defiant Ones? I'm only 2 episodes in but it's really good. Jimmy Iovine has to be the luckiest SOB who ever lived as far as being in the right place at the right time, again and again and again, completely by accident.
    I watched it. I wasn't sure after just the first episode, but I hung with it and watched all four. I thought it was very good.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
      I'm talking about how the music is directly referenced, reused, and revived in later music.
      Awhile back I was watching a documentary about music and someone described Be My Baby, by The Ronettes, and produced by Phil Spector as basically the Rosetta stone for much of the great music which followed.
      That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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      • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

        Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
        Awhile back I was watching a documentary about music and someone described Be My Baby, by The Ronettes, and produced by Phil Spector as basically the Rosetta stone for much of the great music which followed.
        I feel that way about the Shirelles "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow," the greatest song about teen sex ever written.

        I've heard something similar said about "John the Revelator" by Blind Willie Johnson and recorded in 1930 as being responsible for about half of rock and roll.
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        • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          Even now they are really only known to people under 40 the way people know about disco: "it was a thing and people made a really big deal about it." But that's not the same as a group living in your veins.
          I've already demonstrated that to be patently false a handful of different ways. Somewhere along the way a girl that loved the Beatles must have broken your heart because you're being unusually obtuse and illogical about this topic. I'm not going to repeat everything I posted but I'll replay this one: "In 2003 an article by The Independent explained that a third of all Beatles records are being bought people under the age 24 despite the fact the group split up before these people were even born." Also The Beatles' 1 is the 2nd best selling record so far since 2000 and that ain't all on boomers baby.

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          • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

            Originally posted by Slap Shot View Post
            I've already demonstrated that to be patently false a handful of different ways. Somewhere along the way a girl that loved the Beatles must have broken your heart because you're being unusually obtuse and illogical about this topic. I'm not going to repeat everything I posted but I'll replay this one: "In 2003 an article by The Independent explained that a third of all Beatles records are being bought people under the age 24 despite the fact the group split up before these people were even born." Also The Beatles' 1 is the 2nd best selling record so far since 2000 and that ain't all on boomers baby.
            None of that matters.

            Like I said the Beatles are influential -- one of countably few solid A bands in terms of their influence. But (1) they are not head and shoulders above anyone else, and (2) their influence is negligible since the 80s. The reason the Beatles still loom so large is the ripples created by the commercial cash in on them. That isn't a function of musical influence, it's a function of how many units you can sell, which is a function of how well you've created a commercial narrative to entice people to buy sh-t.

            But this is like arguing with someone who thinks "my country is the greatest country in world history." It's obviously being driven by identification, not reason.
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            • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

              Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post

              I'd say Led is over the Beatles. Stones.....on par. Chuck Berry over the Beatles. Jerry Lee Lewis, maybe not for musical talent necessarily, but for the attitude he brought to music that helped rock'n'roll form its identity. If Elvis wrote his own songs, this debate would be over in a heartbeat, but that is a major knock on Elvis.

              Sounds like something said at a party to try and show superior intellect.


              The Stones are definitely not on par - and I actually like the Stones more than the Beatles and listen to them regularly. They have no Abby Road, no White Album, no Sgt. Peppers and even if they did, it would be because the Beatles were already doing it.

              I'm sure Exile will be brought up - my least favorite of their best records.


              I believe that Zeppelin is the most iconic rock 'n roll band of all time - meaning that they encapsulated the talent, debauchery and mythos of what rock stars would become. They did it first and on a grander scale than anyone before them. They had it all... great song writing, a lead singer that made panties wet, really good (pantheon level to some) lead guitarist, popularity, notoriety...

              Zeppelin and Floyd are my two favorite bands all time.


              The Beatles are on a different plane than most iconic though. They were more popular, wrote better songs, crafted better studio albums, transcended rock and became part of pop culture, inspired and influenced more artists and on and on....

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              • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

                Kep - you seem to have a bias against Boomers which is clouding your judgement.


                Sometimes the lowest common denominator is correct.

                I know... it irks me too.

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                • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

                  Originally posted by Gurtholfin View Post
                  Sometimes the lowest common denominator is correct.
                  "Just because everybody believes something doesn't mean it's wrong."
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                  • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

                    Originally posted by Gurtholfin View Post
                    Kep - you seem to have a bias against Boomers which is clouding your judgement.


                    Sometimes the lowest common denominator is correct.

                    I know... it irks me too.
                    He can't seem to get around the idea that the Beatles still have an influence on active musicians still making music, and are considered part of the current generation. Watch or listen to interviews of active artists, and you will hear them credit the Beatles time and time again. They may not be the singular influence that they once were, but they're still being counted as an influence for successful musicians.
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                    • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

                      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                      I'm talking about how the music is directly referenced, reused, and revived in later music. The Beatles did that for 2 decades of music but then they died off -- they became a sort of historical curiosity: a large branch of a tree but one which was no longer producing branches. There are several rap acts which are still being directly referenced, echoed, spoken to and about.

                      Music is like a Great Conversation that goes on forever, and where bands all live forever through their work. Every member of a group can be dead and that group's music can still be in conversation with a living group's music (the American Song Book is the history of the jazz branch of this conversation, and in it Louis Armstrong and Sarah Vaughn are still speaking directly to and through contemporary music).

                      The Conversation has nothing to do with sales or popularity: The Velvet Underground are far more influential than the Beatles and they probably sold less than one millionth of the Beatles' catalog. And critics don't really, either: I and the critics will take our love for the Gang of Four to our graves, and though influential within one branch of one genre of music they can't even compete with somebody like Wire within that channel, let alone across the breadth of music.

                      I'm talking about something akin to the citations index of peer reviewed journals. The Beatles are almost certainly the most cited group from say 1967 through 1977. But they then fall off precipitously. The only bands actually talking directly to the Beatles today are hipster lo-fi bands in Brooklyn, and part of the reason they are is they are playing off the fact that the Beatles fell out of wide influence. If they had not, those bands wouldn't have touched them because they wouldn't be twee and ironic.

                      The Beatles are Freudianism. It utterly dominated psychology for 20 solid years, and then within less than a decade it was eclipsed first by Behaviorism, then Gestalt, then Cognitive, until now it belongs to historiography. It's not living anymore. But of course the mass audience still thinks it's Psychology because when they studied it, it was. But they are the shadow and as they pass even the shadow won't be there anymore. Unless, of course, a sort of Neo-Thomist Beatlism rises (something which is probably a wild misreading of the original text, but which works for the living people of that day). That is entirely possible.
                      I guess I can see that. I'm still not sure I would say NWA quite makes it into your three-decade though. Maybe they do. Especially if you include the solo acts. I'm just not that familiar with rap and hip-hop though.
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                      • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

                        Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                        I guess I can see that. I'm still not sure I would say NWA quite makes it into your three-decade though. Maybe they do. Especially if you include the solo acts. I'm just not that familiar with rap and hip-hop though.
                        Partly it's because rap swelled up over its genre borders and spilled into everything else in the 00s, like rock did in the 70s and jazz did in the 40s. Partly because as with jazz it is in the DNA of rap to sample and respond to prior work explicitly. Jazz, blues, folk, and rap "face backwards." Rock, metal, punk, and soul "face inward." Prog "faces forwards." (Kind of.)
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                        • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

                          All I know is that if there was only one record album that I could listen to for the rest of my life, it wouldn't be a Beatles album. Honestly, I don't know of anyone who would say it's a Beatles album for themselves.
                          That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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                          • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

                            Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                            All I know is that if there was only one record album that I could listen to for the rest of my life, it wouldn't be a Beatles album. Honestly, I don't know of anyone who would say it's a Beatles album for themselves.

                            Point taken, but nobody's made that argument.

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                            • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

                              Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                              He can't seem to get around the idea that the Beatles still have an influence on active musicians still making music, and are considered part of the current generation. Watch or listen to interviews of active artists, and you will hear them credit the Beatles time and time again. They may not be the singular influence that they once were, but they're still being counted as an influence for successful musicians.

                              It doesn't even have to be direct influence.

                              Bands that were influenced by the Beatles have gone on to have their own spheres of influence.

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                              • Re: USCHO Music Thread 4: Songs She Sang to Me, Songs She Brang to Me

                                Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                                All I know is that if there was only one record album that I could listen to for the rest of my life, it wouldn't be a Beatles album. Honestly, I don't know of anyone who would say it's a Beatles album for themselves.
                                That's a great question. How long could one go listening to only one album without growing to hate it? I'm thinking it might have to be classical or something instrumental on a smaller scale, like Charlie Parker or Wynton Marsalis.
                                Last edited by burd; 07-31-2017, 04:04 PM.

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