POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

This could very well be the case. But, to be fair, it's as likely as not that the Russian's quickly realized what a bunch of morons they were trying to involve and ultimately decided to handle things themselves.

I'm sure the Russians have had files on Dump & his cesspool family for a long time. The FSK must have already known they have about 12 brain cells between them. It wouldn't surprise me if the whole idea of running wasn't Inceptioned a decade ago at some hooker pee party in St. Pete.

The only thing in all this that likely surprised Moscow was that Tuesday night when it actually worked. This was all, all from the beginning, just about smearing and laming Clinton. Nobody, not even Dump, ever thought for an instant that there were that many morons in the American electorate.

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

Fox Funnies.

[Drew S.]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

I know you're attempting to make an analogy but to inject some reality into this particular example:
1. The drug dealer would say ok.
2. The drug dealer and his buddies would stomp you into a greasy spot on the floor.
3. The drug dealer would shoot you.

I'm sensing you haven't transacted a lot of business with drug dealers. It's really not an IKEA, "I'm just browsing" type of situation.

So that makes the analogy clueless on it's specifics.

More importantly, your meeting with the drug dealer has no real larger implications. The meeting in and of itself doesn't signal to the drug dealer or his bosses that "hey, people are interested in buying drugs. They didn't make a purchase but they were at least interested. Maybe we're onto something here and should keep trying!" That good old drug dealer perseverance...

Just meeting with the Russians to discuss dirt on Clinton shows that the Trump campaign was open to the idea. That they didn't just shut the idea down out of hand due to, I don't know, some little thing like treason. That alone is huge. Beyond that, how do we know that Fredo didn't say something like, "oh no, I couldn't take that information and release it to the press 6 weeks from now at the most inopportune time for the Clinton campaign, that would be so wrong to do that, I can't believe that's what you've asked me to do, I would never do that, I hope no one else does that. I should report this to the authorities but I'm not going to, because who would believe me, I'm just going to forget this ever happened, remember, we met but I never got anything from you, ok?"

That makes the analogy clueless in every respect.

You're right that I have never been involved with any drug dealers and am quite happy to concede the point that I am clueless on the matter. It was another poster who originally brought up the drugs thing and I tried to better fit the analogy to the Trump situation.

I've read some more on this story since it originally came out and I still don't see how it goes anywhere if there isn't more to it. The English(not Russian) guy who set it up basically said it was a waste of time. There were other intermediaries from show business(who Trump had previously known) involved as well. The one negative thing on Trump's campaign I would say is perhaps they should have notified the FBI/DOJ, but I think most reasonable people can excuse them for not having very much faith in Loretta Lynch.

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

You're right that I have never been involved with any drug dealers and am quite happy to concede the point that I am clueless on the matter. It was another poster who originally brought up the drugs thing and I tried to better fit the analogy to the Trump situation.

I've read some more on this story since it originally came out and I still don't see how it goes anywhere if there isn't more to it. The English(not Russian) guy who set it up basically said it was a waste of time. There were other intermediaries from show business(who Trump had previously known) involved as well. The one negative thing on Trump's campaign I would say is perhaps they should have notified the FBI/DOJ, but I think most reasonable people can excuse them for not having very much faith in Loretta Lynch.

This is certainly an interesting opinion, and one which no doubt will be blared from the rooftops by every righty outlet. At least until the next time a member of the Dump family admits something even worse in their never-ending domino-toppling incompetence of covering lies with more lies.

But it is good to know what the right is thinking, or at any rate what tactics they are trying out.

[Spartanforlife4]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

You're right that I have never been involved with any drug dealers and am quite happy to concede the point that I am clueless on the matter. It was another poster who originally brought up the drugs thing and I tried to better fit the analogy to the Trump situation.

I've read some more on this story since it originally came out and I still don't see how it goes anywhere if there isn't more to it. The English(not Russian) guy who set it up basically said it was a waste of time. There were other intermediaries from show business(who Trump had previously known) involved as well. The one negative thing on Trump's campaign I would say is perhaps they should have notified the FBI/DOJ, but I think most reasonable people can excuse them for not having very much faith in Loretta Lynch.

I wouldn't think most reasonable people wouldn't expect them to commit some light treason, but then again who knows anymore.

[Drew S.]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

It saddens me that people so quickly are willing to defend the truly indefensible. People connected to trump and his campaign for the White House have committed crimes such as obstruction and likely other acts that were truly treasonous. That you trot out one false equivalency after another is appalling. That anybody does is appalling. Anybody who doesn't believe that if this was a democratic president articles of impeachment would already be drawn up and FOX would be running a red headline splashed across the screen 24/7 that screams something along the lines of "crisis in our constitution" is frightfully naive or worse. I generally refrain from strictly ad hominem attacks on other posters ever since the last time I did it Kep neg repped me and somebody ended up dying but posts like your last few try my patience. What trump and his minions are doing is TREASON and the sooner people like you find the courage to admit you are wrong, the sooner we might begin to move to a government that actually occasionally follows the rules and works for the people that put it there.

Give me both barrels if it makes you feel better. The last thing I want is to have a negative impact on anyone's mental wellbeing.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

While I agree with many on here that what Trump and his campaign operatives did during the election was perhaps criminal, all this talk that this was treason is a bit much. To be guilty of treason, you need:

(1) The Defendant owes allegiance to the government; and
(2) The Defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either:
- (a) levying war against the government; or
- (b) giving aid or comfort to the government's enemies.

The hiccup in the treason argument is that Element (2) is not satisfied. There has been no levying of war against the government, and (2)(b) typically requires a declaration of war against the country and does not apply during peacetime. Again, Trump's and his operatives' actions could very well have been criminal (and perhaps impeachable), but it's not treason.

[Spartanforlife4]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

While I agree with many on here that what Trump and his campaign operatives did during the election was perhaps criminal, all this talk that this was treason is a bit much. To be guilty of treason, you need:

(1) The Defendant owes allegiance to the government; and
(2) The Defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either:
- (a) levying war against the government; or
- (b) giving aid or comfort to the government's enemies.

The hiccup in the treason argument is that Element (2) is not satisfied. There has been no levying of war against the government, and (2)(b) typically requires a declaration of war against the country and does not apply during peacetime. Again, Trump's and his operatives' actions could very well have been criminal (and perhaps impeachable), but it's not treason.

Yeah, but it's not often you get to throw out that Arrested Development quote in a literal manner.

[jerphisch]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

What a twisted web...

Veselnitskaya was in the US as the attorney defending a Russian firm accused of laundering money through real estate...being prosecuted by Preet Bharara.

[GrinCDXX]

While I agree with many on here that what Trump and his campaign operatives did during the election was perhaps criminal, all this talk that this was treason is a bit much. To be guilty of treason, you need:

(1) The Defendant owes allegiance to the government; and
(2) The Defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either:
- (a) levying war against the government; or
- (b) giving aid or comfort to the government's enemies.

The hiccup in the treason argument is that Element (2) is not satisfied. There has been no levying of war against the government, and (2)(b) typically requires a declaration of war against the country and does not apply during peacetime. Again, Trump's and his operatives' actions could very well have been criminal (and perhaps impeachable), but it's not treason.

Yeah, I don't like seeing treason thrown out there. It seems like a clear overreach and it only serves to rile up the drones.

[jerphisch]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

While I agree with many on here that what Trump and his campaign operatives did during the election was perhaps criminal, all this talk that this was treason is a bit much. To be guilty of treason, you need:

(1) The Defendant owes allegiance to the government; and
(2) The Defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either:
- (a) levying war against the government; or
- (b) giving aid or comfort to the government's enemies.

The hiccup in the treason argument is that Element (2) is not satisfied. There has been no levying of war against the government, and (2)(b) typically requires a declaration of war against the country and does not apply during peacetime. Again, Trump's and his operatives' actions could very well have been criminal (and perhaps impeachable), but it's not treason.

I think you can strike perhaps...

A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election...
No person shall knowingly solicit, accept, or receive from a foreign national any contribution or donation prohibited by [this law].

[GrinCDXX]

I think you can strike perhaps...

While oppo research clearly has value, I doubt it's really the type of thing that was intended to be covered by that language. Just speculating, but I read that as covering money or anything that's easily convertible to money.

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

While I agree with many on here that what Trump and his campaign operatives did during the election was perhaps criminal, all this talk that this was treason is a bit much. To be guilty of treason, you need:

(1) The Defendant owes allegiance to the government; and
(2) The Defendant intentionally betrays that allegiance by either:
- (a) levying war against the government; or
- (b) giving aid or comfort to the government's enemies.

The hiccup in the treason argument is that Element (2) is not satisfied. There has been no levying of war against the government, and (2)(b) typically requires a declaration of war against the country and does not apply during peacetime. Again, Trump's and his operatives' actions could very well have been criminal (and perhaps impeachable), but it's not treason.

Well, there is the idea that don's guys went into the meeting with the idea of helping out the russian interest of making don president. And given the number of meetings that appear to have covered sanctions before don was president- there's a pretty decent trail of giving aid to the russians.

While I won't say treason right now, at this point, it would not surprise me what so ever.

One is true by default of running for President, and 2b looks highly likely at this point. WE (the public) don't have full 2b evidence, true.

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

I've read some more on this story since it originally came out and I still don't see how it goes anywhere if there isn't more to it. The English(not Russian) guy who set it up basically said it was a waste of time. There were other intermediaries from show business(who Trump had previously known) involved as well. The one negative thing on Trump's campaign I would say is perhaps they should have notified the FBI/DOJ, but I think most reasonable people can excuse them for not having very much faith in Loretta Lynch.

You must be reading a different set of e-mails that I've heard. Here's an annotation from NPR of the e-mails- here-http://www.npr.org/2017/07/11/536670194/donald-trump-jr-s-emails-about-meeting-with-russian-lawyer-annotated

From Goldstone to don Jr:

Good morning

Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.

The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump – helped along by Aras and Emin.

What do you think is the best way to handle this information and would you be able to speak to Emin about it directly?

I can also send this info to your father via Rhona, but it is ultra sensitive so wanted to send to you first.

Best

Rob Goldstone

That hardly seems like the information is a waste of time- in fact, it appears that there's some very high level and probably illegally gotten documents. And this is the e-mail that jr got to entice him to the meeting.

Here's another e-mail, making it pretty darned clear WHO jr was going to meet:

Don

Hope all is well

Emin asked that I schedule a meeting with you and The Russian government attorney who is flying over from Moscow for this Thursday.

I believe you are aware of the meeting - and so wondered if 3pm or later on Thursday works for you?

I assume it would be at your office.

Best

Rob Goldstone

And if there's any question about how much jr knew, and was in on the meeting- there's a whole list of other e-mails, but here's the one spelling out who would be at the meeting, from jr

Great. It will likely be Paul Manafort (campaign boss) my brother in law and me. 725 Fifth Ave 25th floor.

It's pretty hard to come up with a "duped" idea based on the e-mail chain, just as it's pretty hard to downplay what the information is going to be- it's pretty clear this was sensitive and very high level information that not an ordinary person can come up with, and jr was clearly told that.

If you want to say this is nothing, where a business partner in Russia worked with the russian government to get information to help the don campaign with sensitive information that could have only come from the government, well, go for it, commrade.

At this point, it's hard to look at you as anything different than someone who has the intention of taking our government down.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: POTUS 45.13 - CNN is still Fake News

Well, there is the idea that don's guys went into the meeting with the idea of helping out the russian interest of making don president. And given the number of meetings that appear to have covered sanctions before don was president- there's a pretty decent trail of giving aid to the russians.

While I won't say treason right now, at this point, it would not surprise me what so ever.

One is true by default of running for President, and 2b looks highly likely at this point. WE (the public) don't have full 2b evidence, true.

That might all well be true, but 2b requires the aid to the government's enemies. Russia was not a government enemy (i.e. there was no declaration of war against Russia and the U.S. and Russia were at peace during the election) to the extent as would lead to a treason charge. What they did could very well be criminal, but it was not treason.